Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 814
# 111
01-22-2013, 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsww View Post
Yeah, I know how that works. Some Panda dies in PvP, whines to a particular person with a yellow name, and inbound nerfs all around! It's not the first time and definitely won't be the last time either.
Funny I was just talking about this in one of the RP group channels and we all basically said the same thing.

Can't have new or unique powers because the PVP community cries NERF rather than attempt to develop new strategy and tactics.

Don't like getting caught in tractor beams? Bring abilities/consoles that allow you to break free rather than crying NERF.

I would like to see a formal split between STO PVE and STO PVP. STO PVP would have an very basic set of powers and equipment while STO PVE would have all the toys.
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ISE ISE Ba-bee. "If you got the Borg yo... I'll solve 'em check out this shot while my torpedos dissolve 'em"
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,208
# 112
01-22-2013, 09:00 AM
First, I'd like to state for the record that no Fleet in STO has the 'ear' of the Systems Team, which is in charge of power tuning and balance for both PvE and PvP. That said, I believe it's fairly common sense why the PvP community as a whole would be an invaluable asset to the continued balance of any MMO, considering that NPCs as a whole are extremely unlikely to submit feedback about imbalances that may evolve during gameplay.

Tricobalt Mines were changed (and are still being reviewed for further adjustments) primarily due to PvE concerns, not PvP. Mines are relatively easy to counter in a PvP environment under most circumstances, but the tactics used to do so are not generally available to our NPCs.

Specifically, we have come to realize that some of the most difficult content in STO was being destroyed in a matter of seconds using nothing other than Tricobalt Mines. No grand tactics, no difficult maneuvering or careful teamwork. Just poop out a few Dispersal Patterns and wait for the victory march. Not only is this "tactic" pretty cheap, it also circumvents the concept of overcoming the challenges that make these encounters more engaging and psychologically satisfying to overcome. In essence, players using Tricobalt Mines in this manner are diminishing their own experiencing, and that of their teammates.

This concern hasn't been fully addressed, and players are likely to see further changes to Tricobalt Mines in the future. But during our initial pass, we determined that a number of small tweaks could immediately be made that might help matters, while we attempt to address the larger issue.
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Cryptic - Systems Design
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Quote:
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 781
# 113
01-22-2013, 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
First, I'd like to state for the record that no Fleet in STO has the 'ear' of the Systems Team, which is in charge of power tuning and balance for both PvE and PvP. That said, I believe it's fairly common sense why the PvP community as a whole would be an invaluable asset to the continued balance of any MMO, considering that NPCs as a whole are extremely unlikely to submit feedback about imbalances that may evolve during gameplay.

Tricobalt Mines were changed (and are still being reviewed for further adjustments) primarily due to PvE concerns, not PvP. Mines are relatively easy to counter in a PvP environment under most circumstances, but the tactics used to do so are not generally available to our NPCs.

Specifically, we have come to realize that some of the most difficult content in STO was being destroyed in a matter of seconds using nothing other than Tricobalt Mines. No grand tactics, no difficult maneuvering or careful teamwork. Just poop out a few Dispersal Patterns and wait for the victory march. Not only is this "tactic" pretty cheap, it also circumvents the concept of overcoming the challenges that make these encounters more engaging and psychologically satisfying to overcome. In essence, players using Tricobalt Mines in this manner are diminishing their own experiencing, and that of their teammates.

This concern hasn't been fully addressed, and players are likely to see further changes to Tricobalt Mines in the future. But during our initial pass, we determined that a number of small tweaks could immediately be made that might help matters, while we attempt to address the larger issue.
not true you due have an ear it is Maveric at Jupiter force and Gecko has ear of Prioty one fleet how else do you explain voldermort fix thehn that was reqeust of Stoked and jupiter force was it not
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,087
# 114
01-22-2013, 09:34 AM
Accusations not withstanding...

It's only common sense that the players with the most technical understanding of the game would be the most vocal...

Whether they come from PvE or PvP, shouldn't really matter.

Those 'most vocal' are probably going to post the most as well...

Therefore the Dev's will in most instances, be more likely to see these posts, which indirectly would lead to the conclusion that those posters 'have the Dev's ear' so to speak.

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it leads to a healthier game environment for all.

Now..., I'm not going to even get into ones definition of what that 'healthier environment' should be.

...... DaveyNY ...STO Forum Member since February - 2009
..............Star Trek Fan since Thursday Sept. 8th, 1966
There are No Longer any STO Veterans... We're Just People who have Played the Game for the last 4.5 years.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,775
# 115
01-22-2013, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
First, I'd like to state for the record that no Fleet in STO has the 'ear' of the Systems Team, which is in charge of power tuning and balance for both PvE and PvP. That said, I believe it's fairly common sense why the PvP community as a whole would be an invaluable asset to the continued balance of any MMO, considering that NPCs as a whole are extremely unlikely to submit feedback about imbalances that may evolve during gameplay.

Tricobalt Mines were changed (and are still being reviewed for further adjustments) primarily due to PvE concerns, not PvP. Mines are relatively easy to counter in a PvP environment under most circumstances, but the tactics used to do so are not generally available to our NPCs.

Specifically, we have come to realize that some of the most difficult content in STO was being destroyed in a matter of seconds using nothing other than Tricobalt Mines. No grand tactics, no difficult maneuvering or careful teamwork. Just poop out a few Dispersal Patterns and wait for the victory march. Not only is this "tactic" pretty cheap, it also circumvents the concept of overcoming the challenges that make these encounters more engaging and psychologically satisfying to overcome. In essence, players using Tricobalt Mines in this manner are diminishing their own experiencing, and that of their teammates.

This concern hasn't been fully addressed, and players are likely to see further changes to Tricobalt Mines in the future. But during our initial pass, we determined that a number of small tweaks could immediately be made that might help matters, while we attempt to address the larger issue.
I agree with you from a certain standpoint but there are setups like mine being an alt uses it haven't had the time to test how it will impact that toon which is a gorn sci in varanus where I have it setup to be a team healer/tricobalt or photon mine bomber. So hopefully it doesn't diminish that toons damage too much.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 116
01-22-2013, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Specifically, we have come to realize that some of the most difficult content in STO was being destroyed in a matter of seconds using nothing other than Tricobalt Mines. No grand tactics, no difficult maneuvering or careful teamwork. Just poop out a few Dispersal Patterns and wait for the victory march. Not only is this "tactic" pretty cheap, it also circumvents the concept of overcoming the challenges that make these encounters more engaging and psychologically satisfying to overcome. In essence, players using Tricobalt Mines in this manner are diminishing their own experiencing, and that of their teammates.
If your concern is PVE then tric mines are still extremely useful to one shot huge stacks of mobs, but not because it's OP, it's because the warp core explosions deal way too much damage. Let me explain this: when you use a graviy well, the main purpose of this ability isn't to "hold" targets. Of course it does, but when you use that the primary objective is to make a huge stack of npcs you will be able to kill with a massives spike damage.

The problem with tric mines is that they are the most impressive spike damage the game has to offer, and when you blow up a dreadnought (in no win for instance), it will likely blow up some other damaged npcs inside the gravity well, which will blow up the newly damaged ones, and so on. The more powerful your grav well is, the quicker you can clean the map. But GW isn't the issue. Spike damage combined to warp core explosions combined to spike damage (to be able to benefit from the short GW effect) is the problem.

If your purpose was to give people a better PVE experience, and if you want to keep tric mines as they are, then you should consider to lower significantly the shield damage they can do or to reduce significantly the damage a warp core explosion does. I'd say that the latter solution is the most durable one because you shouldn't be annoyed anymore with new or different spike damage abilities. Any spike damage, no matter how long the CD is, will be a major issue in pve. And the problem hasn't been solved with the last patch because warp core explosions are still as powerful as they used to be.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-22-2013 at 10:01 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 987
# 117
01-22-2013, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean2448 View Post
not true you due have an ear it is Maveric at Jupiter force and Gecko has ear of Prioty one fleet how else do you explain voldermort fix thehn that was reqeust of Stoked and jupiter force was it not
The "have an ear" expression means Party A (the ear) is influenced by Party B. The Voldemort glitch was brought to light to Cryptic due to a very prominent STO podcast; Had STOked not piped up, its likely Cryptic would have taken longer to get it fixed.

It's a case of "these guys are screaming at the top of their lungs, so somebody's bound to hear it". Also, would you rather have the case of prominent entities in the STO community not expose bugs quicker and more loudly?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 987
# 118
01-22-2013, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If your concern is PVE then tric mines are still extremely useful to one shot huge stacks of mobs, but not because it's OP, it's because the warp core explosions deal way too much damage. Let me explain this: when you use a graviy well, the main purpose of this ability isn't to "hold" targets. Of course it does, but when you use that the primary objective is to make a huge stack of npcs you will be able to kill with a massives spike damage.

The problem with tric mines is that they are the most impressive spike damage the game has to offer, and when you blow up a dreadnought (in no win for instance), it will likely blow up some other damaged npcs, which will blow up the newly damaged ones, and so on.

If your purpose was to give people a better PVE experience, and if yoy want to keep tric mines as they are, then you should consider to lower significantly the shield damage they can do or to reduce significantly the damage a warp core explosion does. I'd say that the latter solution is the most durable one because you shouldn't be annoyed anymore with new or different spike damage abilities.
I'd also like to add that my gameplay satisfaction isn't reduced when I one shot STF targets. I love the visceral feeling of seeing a Cube or Transformer get insta-gibbed.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 119
01-22-2013, 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Specifically, we have come to realize that some of the most difficult content in STO was being destroyed in a matter of seconds using nothing other than Tricobalt Mines. No grand tactics, no difficult maneuvering or careful teamwork. Just poop out a few Dispersal Patterns and wait for the victory march. Not only is this "tactic" pretty cheap, it also circumvents the concept of overcoming the challenges that make these encounters more engaging and psychologically satisfying to overcome. In essence, players using Tricobalt Mines in this manner are diminishing their own experiencing, and that of their teammates.
It only works that way because the targets you're probably referring to (gates, transformers and generators in STFs) have no shields, making them an easy target for any torpedo/mine tactic. And this is all by design, since torpedoes and mines are easily countered by shields, or should be. Seeing from numbers, Tricobalts were designed to be the most powerful/damaging ones, for the cost of long recharges. So, in my perception, you're reaping what you sow here.

Where shield-less entities are concerned, I don't think there is a viable solution that doesn't impact in how torpedoes and mines originally work. One of your current discussion/proposals about this subject (decrease mine damage based on how many are launched from Dispersal Patterns) changes that very aspect. Dispersal Pattern skills are not supposed to change mine damage, just how many are launched. And that's what sells the skill and makes it interesting. Take that away and you're slapping the face of people who work hard to get high tiers of these skills for their benefits.

If shielded entities -are- the concern, then maybe tweak how much damage tricobalts do to shields, but leave the hull damage untouched. If a target (player or NPC) has no shields and is hit by tricobalts, it's their own fault for allowing that to happen. It requires tactics and teamwork both to get there (attacker/s) and to get out of it (victim).
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 120
01-22-2013, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault View Post
I'd also like to add that my gameplay satisfaction isn't reduced when I one shot STF targets. I love the visceral feeling of seeing a Cube or Transformer get insta-gibbed.
STF targets are pathetic anyway, and will likely get killed long before your tric mines come back from the 30s (if you use two) or 1' cooldown. Or they will likely blow up before your mines are able to do anything.

I think bort is quite right here though, my usual path is:
Find a new great combo > experiment > use it in the most difficult instances > have a lot of fun for some time > get bored > get back to a traditional build. I mean, i stopped using tric mines in hive onslaught because it allowed me to almost solo the queen in her mighty ship in less than 5 minutes. And it's not funny, even if people will call you a great player.

Most of the times i won't complain on the forums though, because the ones i still have can be extremely funny in pvp - and if people don't know what happened they will likely not complain about something supposedly op.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-22-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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