Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,155
# 21
01-11-2013, 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
DHCs actually fire half as much as beam arrays. Twice per cycle as oppossed to four times per cycle.

DHCs are fine. Its beam arrays that need thier drain mechanic adjusted so they do not kill thier effectiveness when used.

Dual cannons are a whole different issue as they are only marginally more damaging than beam arrays with a restrictive firing arc.

Oh,and on a side note. The old standby for escorts is 2 DHCs, 1 DBB and a torp. Its layout many still use today.
Yes, well said, beams just need to have their drain lessened.

Also I just switched to that 2 DHC, 1 DBB, 1 torp fromt he usual 3 DHC 1 torp layout on my Fleet Defiant and Fleet Hoh'sus, still works great.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 22
01-11-2013, 01:23 AM
Quote:
But if you insist on looking at just the weapons be aware that firing arcs and range matter as well as whatever the final DPS turns out to be.
This argument would be more persuasive if it weren't the fact that the highest DPS weapons, the ones with the smallest firing arcs and shortest effective range, weren't the exclusive domain of the most agile ship class; to whom range and firing arc mean the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
Have you ever flyied an escort?
but with beam arrays you can fire in a 360? arc
...250 degrees...

If you're going to look at multiple weapons, then compare 2 beam arrays to 2 turrets which really DO have 360 degree firing capability and better options for tactical abilities.

Quote:
people often forget that cruiser are not attack ships, they are support ones (tanking and healing is their role)
People often forget that rigidly class-based gameplay via crippling overspecialization is strategically inflexible and boring.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 510
# 23
01-11-2013, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
...250 degrees...
if you equip beam arrays both in the front and in the rear of your ship, you can fire at any target in a 360 degree arc. And there are position that let you fire using all of the 8 beam arrays you can mount in a cruiser.

So for example you can activate a BO and if the opponent is in the range one beam surely will fire at it.

Last edited by eurialo; 01-11-2013 at 02:34 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 24
01-11-2013, 02:33 AM
I apologize ahead of time for the long post.

DHCs and DCs do suffer from range degradation issues, and they also suffer from tiny firing arcs. And yes, the ships that usually use them are very maneuverable, but what if your target is above you? And is using BAs? You're kinda boned. You will have turrets, but because this game limits your pitch to about 60 degrees, you will have a heck of a time killing your target with DHCs. I know, because I have seen beamscorts slaughter cannonscorts by simply getting above them and staying there. 6 BAs beat out 3 turrets any day of the week.

As for beams? Yeah, they are hella weak, but they also have the second best firing arcs in the game. 250 degrees is nothing to sneeze at. That's a 35 degree spillover in which you can broadside a target. The only negative is you are semi-forced to use the 180 degree quantum torp as a fed cruiser. Now I will agree that BAs, considering they are the primary weapon of most of one of the ships in a certain class, are still weak. But the ONLY buff I would support would be the restoration of the 20% damage they lost a few seasons back. And a slight increase in accuracy. Nothing more than 10%, preferably more like 5%.

Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration, one of the things Bareel said that I agreed with is that there are too many abilities that synergize too well with DCs and DHCs. Granted there are 3 BA based abilities, and only 2 cannon based abilities, but if you look at their actual capability, the abilities for cannons are somewhat better.

Cannons:
Cannon Rapid Fire: single target f*** you button.
Cannon Scatter Volley: multi target f*** you button.

Beams:
Beam Fire At Will: "shoot EVERYTHING!" "But sir..." "I SAID EVERYTHING. NAO!!!" aka disco ball
Beam Overload: single target f*** your shield button and then give up all your weapons power.
Beam Target X: single target possibly screw a subsystem ability

The thing is, the CD and the fact you can't really aim it well makes BFAW not as good as it could be. Granted if you get to use it and only have one target to hit, it's wonderfully amazingly devastating (especially on tac cubes), but overall, it just draws too much attention. Then you have Beam Overload. You get a massive hit (minimum of 600%), but it nukes your weapons power. And I mean you literally EMP your own weapons with this ability. Then you have SST. Most commonly found on Science ships, but every so often I run into a cruiser using this. It's a wonderful ability, but due to it's CD, it's not really ideal for cruisers. Science ships use it because they get it for free (and I abuse it badly with my FRSV), but if you actually have to use a tactical slot for it, it's usefulness is unchanged, but it's idealness drops spectacularly.

Now let's look at cannon abilities. Cannon Rapid Fire screws a single target. And then screws it more. And then screws it more. Downside? Slightly less damage per shot, slightly higher energy drain. Cannon Scatter Volley? You basically blast everything in a large cone in front of you. Downside? Only 70% damage per shot.

Comparing the two, and then adding in the damage of DHCs compared to BAs, you will see that beams get the short end of the stick here.

So it makes you wonder wtf I am getting at after this wonderful exposition? Well I am just saying both have their upsides and downsides. It just seems that cannons have fewer downsides. But they do exist. So you cannot show cannons being a perfect weapon, because they aren't. Whereas beams, despite a few weaknesses, are not as gimped as some people would have you believe. Just a little weaker.

TL;DR
Beams are a little weaker, but are better in some situations. Cannons are far more powerful, but suffer from weaknesses that beams don't. If you absolutely must do something, don't nerf DHCs or DCs. I would say remove the 20% debuff on beams, and give a slight accuracy buff. And also look at the BOff abilities that affect the two, and might want to do some revamping there.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 25
01-11-2013, 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
if you equip beam arrays both in the front and in the rear of your ship,

I specifically and preemptively addressed this point in the post you replied to.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 26
01-11-2013, 03:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
if you equip beam arrays both in the front and in the rear of your ship, you can fire at any target in a 360 degree arc. And there are position that let you fire using all of the 8 beam arrays you can mount in a cruiser.

So for example you can activate a BO and if the opponent is in the range one beam surely will fire at it.
If you're broadsiding, you're effectively sacrificing any chance of bringing projectile weapons to bear. Contrary to popular belief, more guns =/= more firepower.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 510
# 27
01-11-2013, 04:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
If you're broadsiding, you're effectively sacrificing any chance of bringing projectile weapons to bear. Contrary to popular belief, more guns =/= more firepower.
but cruiser's role is support, not damage. People thinking to fly a cruiser and having a high dps are simply making it wrong!

In a team I expect that a cruiser will support an escort tanking, healing, protecting...

Moreover cruisers are slow and have a low turn rate.... it's not the best ship for torpedoes
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 471
# 28
01-11-2013, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Oh,and on a side note. The old standby for escorts is 2 DHCs, 1 DBB and a torp. Its layout many still use today.
I support this. Updated with modern technology ofc. 2 DHCs/DCs, 1 Experimental Romulan Beam Array and a Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo.

Hull melt is a beast and well worth the difference between a DBB and an Array. Plus its less power drain cos the ERBA doesnt drain weapon power and only drains 35 with Beam Overload instead of the usual 50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
If you're broadsiding, you're effectively sacrificing any chance of bringing projectile weapons to bear. Contrary to popular belief, more guns =/= more firepower.
Not exactlly. Could always run 3x Cannons + 1x 180degree quantum front with 4x Turrets aft. Kinda broadsides if necessary and, at close range, probably out damages beam builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
And also look at the BOff abilities that affect the two, and might want to do some revamping there.
This is the game we have. After 3 years of people asking for the Devs to make Beam BO skills as competitive as Cannon BO skills they have done nothing of the sort. There is no reason to believe they ever will.

I too wish they would. But then there are lots of things I wish they would do that would improve the game but they would rather spend the time on Neverwinter and ignore STO.

Last edited by seekerkorhil; 01-11-2013 at 04:26 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 671
# 29
01-11-2013, 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
The old standby for escorts is 2 DHCs, 1 DBB and a torp. Its layout many still use today.
I personally use this setup as well... I have two purple con doffs so only need 1 Tact Team... so a Beam Overload I... can provide a last punch for the last shot of my pass..

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
However people often forget that cruiser are not attack ships, they are support ones (tanking and healing is their role)... do not use a ship for a role tha is not the right one.
^This right here, so many people build their cruisers for DPS...

Can you can deal a solid amount but, its not your primary role..

Threat Control 9 + FAW = The Escorts on the team can tear things up w/o exploding.

If you're a Cruiser that can mount DHC even better... you can hold aggro and still deal a great deal amount of damage....

When I flew my D'kora on my main.. I'd park my ship right next to a tact cube.. Tank and fire my cannons and turrets.. he's an Engineer so power levels was never an issue.
I'll stop kicking that horse when the bugs fixed. Until then as a paying consumer, I will voice my opinion.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 30
01-11-2013, 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsyblade View Post
^This right here, so many people build their cruisers for DPS...

Can you can deal a solid amount but, its not your primary role..

Threat Control 9 + FAW = The Escorts on the team can tear things up w/o exploding.

Okay, so.. their "role" is to tank, which means
* it's going to take them five times longer to do any non team based combat because they're relying on people who aren't present to do damage.
* spending skill points and equipment slots on things that only increase threat instead of increasing firepower or survivability.
* any team that isn't composed of the proper 4-escort/1-cruiser ratio is probably at a disadvantage because all-escorts usually (not always) dies a lot and more than one dedicated tank just slows things down needlessly

Versus,
* Every ship should be able to stay alive and do damage to an equal extent if using their varying abilities at an equally proficient level.

... Call me crazy, but that second seems a lot more like good game design.
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