Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 195
Why does a Mk XI Beam array (168DPS) use the same amount of weapon power as a Mk XI Dual Cannon (244DPS), and only 2 less power than a Dual Heavy Cannon (244 DPS but with more crits)?

It seems to me that this unfairly nerfs Cruisers that should in theory mount 8 Beam arrays due to their poor maneuverability. In actuality however, the more energy weapons you use the more you end up with diminishing returns from each one. It also seems to me that all the other energy weapons are horribly inefficient compared to Dual and Dual Heavy Cannons. This thread makes a good reference to this: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh....php?p=2750495


For reference, here's the different energy weapon types and power usage for standard Mk XI phaser weapons from the STO Wiki:

Type/Firing Arc/DPS/-x weapon power when firing other weapons

Turret/360/132/-8
Beam Array/250/168/-10
Single Cannon/180/202/-10
Dual Beam Bank/90/219/-10
Dual Cannons/45/244/-10
Dual Heavy Cannons/45/244(+crits)/-12


Why isn't it something like this?:

Type/Firing Arc/DPS/-x weapon power when firing other weapons

Turret/360/132/-4
Beam Array/250/168/-6
Single Cannon/180/202/-8
Dual Beam Bank/90/219/-9
Dual Cannons/45/244/-10
Dual Heavy Cannons/45/244(+crits)/-12


I also thought that since Cruisers are the biggest ships they should have much bigger and better warp cores than the other ships, allowing them to handle the power requirements of eight energy weapons much better than they actually do.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,753
# 2
01-10-2013, 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter1z9 View Post
Why does a Mk XI Beam array (168DPS) use the same amount of weapon power as a Mk XI Dual Cannon (244DPS), and only 2 less power than a Dual Heavy Cannon (244 DPS but with more crits)?

Its a little bit of something called fire arcs and a little bit of something called design intent. Learn it, live it, love it!


I also thought that since Cruisers are the biggest ships they should have much bigger and better warp cores than the other ships, allowing them to handle the power requirements of eight energy weapons much better than they actually do.

And here it is, the inevitable bringing in of "lore logic" into what is meant to be a balance post. And why is it always about cruisers having larger warp cores and should therefore have more weapon power? Why is it never about how that warp core has to move a lot more mass around and barely has any left for weapons?

Dude, if you want to do more damage do what sensible folks do and post your build and ask for help in getting better performance out of your ship. There is no reason to feel bad about it; the game does such a poor job of teaching players how to actually build and fly their ships that practically everyone has an eye opening moment when they realize they actually have no clue what they are doing and they've been level 50 for weeks!


Comments in RED
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 654
# 3
01-10-2013, 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter1z9 View Post

Type/Firing Arc/DPS/-x weapon power when firing other weapons

Turret/360/132/-8
Beam Array/250/168/-10
Single Cannon/180/202/-10
Dual Beam Bank/90/219/-10
Dual Cannons/45/244/-10
Dual Heavy Cannons/45/244(+crits)/-12
firing arc...

beam array: 250
dual cannon: 45

it's not a little difference, it's a great difference
Using beam array you haven't to face your opponent, and a cruiser using beam array can always fire to approacing enemies and heavy torpedos

Quote:
I also thought that since Cruisers are the biggest ships they should have much bigger and better warp cores than the other ships, allowing them to handle the power requirements of eight energy weapons much better than they actually do.
a bigger ship also need/use more power... however I suspect your build is not optimal, my sub-optimal engeenear officer on his cruiser has good dps using 8 beam arrays. Why don't you simply post your build and ask about some advice?

But do not forget that cruisers are support ships, if you want pure dps you have to fly escorts (and sacrifice resistance).
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,237
# 4
01-10-2013, 11:30 PM
I do kind of see the OP's point. How are cruisers which mount much larger warp reactors generating the same net energy levels as their smaller escort counterparts? This is similar to a US Aircraft Carrier with 8 nuclear reactors putting out the same power levels as a small destroyer -- it just doesn't make sense.

I think cruisers do deserve access to more passive bonus energy than the flat +15 that all ships get. This more accurately reflects their supposedly superior onboard power systems. They should not have to use BOFF abilties to get temporary power bonuses when they should have more total power at all times.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 195
# 5
01-11-2013, 12:32 AM
I don't think you should be penalized twice for having a better firing arc, which is exactly what the current system does. Besides, properly built Tactical Captains in Escorts with attack patterns turn so much faster that 45 degrees isn't really an obstacle.

Beam Array/250/168/-10
vs
Dual Cannons/45/244/-10

In exchange for a 205 degree improvement, beam arrays have 69% of the dps of the Dual Cannons while using the same amount of power. I've seen other people wanting higher dps beam arrays, but that's not the answer. They should absolutely be lower than Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy cannons. I would just like them to be able to sustain their DPS better than they currently do.


Cruisers only get 10% more shields than escorts (comparing free cruisers vs free escorts), have a pitiful +5 power level bonus over escorts (free fed cruisers have +5 all power levels vs +15 weapons power on free fed escorts), have less than half the turn rate of the escorts, and only have a 20.5% better hull.

Last edited by peter1z9; 01-11-2013 at 12:38 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,692
# 6
01-11-2013, 02:11 AM
Let's look at things carefully. Cruiser mass ~ 10 - 15x the mass of an escort. Cruiser size ~ 4 - 5x the mass of an escort.

So the warp cores have to generate power to keep the structural integrity field of the ship intact, power the impulse engines, stabilize the warp field, power all of the ships many systems, keep the EPS conduits stable, provide consistent shielding across the entire hull, power the main deflector etc. So that larger warp core basically has to do that for a ship that is much much larger than your average escort and uses up much more energy to do these things. Your escort has to do the same, but the energy usage is much lower, since it's a much smaller ship. Especially the defiant and bug. Those ships are TINY. And they have large warp cores. If you watch the show, you will see the Defiant's warp core takes up almost it's entire engineering deck, and they have to walk around it to get anywhere. If you look at the Enterprise-D, you will see a large warp core, but there is room to move around it etc.

Gross Power Output on those larger ships is roughly 20-25x that of the smaller ships, but gross power usage is also roughly 20-25x that of the smaller ships. The end result: net power output is about the same in proportion.

Can't use the "larger warp core" argument, sorry buddy.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 18
# 7
01-11-2013, 02:31 AM
Escorts are ment to be over gunned little bundles of DPS. crusers are much more balanced, next time you team with one watch them die over and over as you hardly lose one shield.

each type has its own best

cruisers are the best tanks science vessles are best heal/buffers and and escorts are dps. now cruisers can heal/buff and science vessles can kinda tank...escorts can kinda heal/buff

but if a escort ever tries to tank....call it kenny...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 8
01-11-2013, 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter1z9 View Post
In exchange for a 205 degree improvement, beam arrays have 69% of the dps of the Dual Cannons while using the same amount of power.

Wrong.

You get to shoot one gun for free, and after that all weapons firing drain power.

Dual heavy cannons consume 12 power for 2 seconds and then sleep for 3 seconds.

Beam arrays consume 10 power for 4 seconds and then sleep for 1 second.

Dual heavy cannons have a short "duty cycle" meaning they spend more time sleeping than draining. Combined with the fact that you get one gun for free without drain every 2 seconds, what this means is that dual heavy cannons are very power efficient because they don't step on eachother's toes too much.

Beam arrays, are horrendously power inefficient, because every beam array is draining power 80% of the time you're shooting, and you only get a "free" gun every 4 seconds instead of every 2 seconds.

All of this conspires to make beam arrays far worse than they look on paper. There is simply no comparison in the power requirements of a full on beam broadside versus a cannons boat. To beam broadside effectively with 6 arrays, you will need around +50 power to guns to offset the drain. (Cruiser captains who go around with 8 arrays... You need +70 power. Good luck.)

Bear in mind this is just to reach parity before tactical abilities. Cannon tactical abilities are hands down superior to those available for beams.

Last edited by momaw; 01-11-2013 at 03:03 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 307
# 9
01-11-2013, 04:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Wrong.

You get to shoot one gun for free, and after that all weapons firing drain power.

Dual heavy cannons consume 12 power for 2 seconds and then sleep for 3 seconds.

Beam arrays consume 10 power for 4 seconds and then sleep for 1 second.

Dual heavy cannons have a short "duty cycle" meaning they spend more time sleeping than draining. Combined with the fact that you get one gun for free without drain every 2 seconds, what this means is that dual heavy cannons are very power efficient because they don't step on eachother's toes too much.

Beam arrays, are horrendously power inefficient, because every beam array is draining power 80% of the time you're shooting, and you only get a "free" gun every 4 seconds instead of every 2 seconds.

All of this conspires to make beam arrays far worse than they look on paper. There is simply no comparison in the power requirements of a full on beam broadside versus a cannons boat. To beam broadside effectively with 6 arrays, you will need around +50 power to guns to offset the drain. (Cruiser captains who go around with 8 arrays... You need +70 power. Good luck.)

Bear in mind this is just to reach parity before tactical abilities. Cannon tactical abilities are hands down superior to those available for beams.
Can't see how this is right.
Most of the times all the energy weapons fire very near simultaneously - few people make an effort to moderate their weapon cycles like that - there wouldn't be a lot of gain either way.

"you only get a "free" gun every 4 seconds instead of every 2 seconds"
What are you talking about. They all take 5 or 6 seconds or so to cycle and lag makes it near impossible to take any advantage of this by firing each gun with a 2 second delay (which will work with at most three cannons or 2 phaser banks).

He's dead, Jim.

Last edited by lolimpicard; 01-11-2013 at 04:15 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 10
01-11-2013, 06:29 AM
Change the Drain value for Beam Arrays so each of the 4 shots drains 2.5 weapon power for a maximum of 10 points drain for the whole cycle per beam instead of -10 drain per shot in the cycle.

Problem solved.

But the OP is way off. Weapon Power does not favor Escorts. Thats like saying Shield Power favors Cruisers. The Power stats don't favor anyone, they just are what they are.
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