Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 21
01-11-2013, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
And I fully agreed with you from the first time you posted it, the only place we disagree is in the ease of deployment
Deployment? With Cruiser options up to a LTC tac slot (i'm ignoring the lockboxes and special ships) one should be able to use BRF up to T3 .
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 22
01-11-2013, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Gross Power Output on those larger ships is roughly 20-25x that of the smaller ships, but gross power usage is also roughly 20-25x that of the smaller ships. The end result: net power output is about the same in proportion.

Can't use the "larger warp core" argument, sorry buddy.
Only because you don't want him to use it.

I could just as easily turn around and say no one is dull enough to design a military boat with just enough. I could just as easily turn around and say no one is dull enough to designed a ship meant to be weighted with extra power to have 'just'.

Having that extra power and hull is the key point of what classifies a cruiser as a cruiser. Sacrificing everything else for speed and weapons power (like it really does ... ) is what classifies a escort as a escort. At least it should, see OP.

Edit: Going back to the carrier example with x10 power plants? I'm willing to bet 90% of those could run just fine on one plant, and the remaining 10% on two. The designer gave it extra because they knew it was going to take a pounding without any really way to escape a ship killer. So they gave it the extra bulk to live long enough to bite back long enough to make a difference and protect the multi-billion dolor investment.

The ethic behind a ship killer is dropping everything down to one, maybe two redundancy to free weight for speed and weapons. Meaning they don't have the spare power to play with, or the ability to suck up 50mm shells without braking stride.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 01-11-2013 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Illiteration
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
# 23
01-11-2013, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Let's look at things carefully. Cruiser mass ~ 10 - 15x the mass of an escort. Cruiser size ~ 4 - 5x the mass of an escort.

So the warp cores have to generate power to keep the structural integrity field of the ship intact, power the impulse engines, stabilize the warp field, power all of the ships many systems, keep the EPS conduits stable, provide consistent shielding across the entire hull, power the main deflector etc. So that larger warp core basically has to do that for a ship that is much much larger than your average escort and uses up much more energy to do these things. Your escort has to do the same, but the energy usage is much lower, since it's a much smaller ship. Especially the defiant and bug. Those ships are TINY. And they have large warp cores. If you watch the show, you will see the Defiant's warp core takes up almost it's entire engineering deck, and they have to walk around it to get anywhere. If you look at the Enterprise-D, you will see a large warp core, but there is room to move around it etc.

Gross Power Output on those larger ships is roughly 20-25x that of the smaller ships, but gross power usage is also roughly 20-25x that of the smaller ships. The end result: net power output is about the same in proportion.

Can't use the "larger warp core" argument, sorry buddy.
Sure we can... there are no quantitative figures demonstrating how much more power additional ship sizes require vs. warp core power generation and efficiency -- if you have any official figures, then please link them here.

The fastest Fed ships are usually in the 9.8 (Enterprise-D) to 9.9 (Intrepid Science Ship) warp speeds, while the Defiant tops out at Warp 8. Since the Warp Speed scale is logarithmic, the Enterprise-D is supposed to have power levels that dwarf smaller ships like the Defiant. If larger ships do require dramatically more power to maintain SIF's at warp speeds, then shuttles would be the fastest ships in Star Trek, but we see exactly the opposite results.

EDIT: BTW, warp field power requirements are INSANE -- to accelerate a single atom to warp for a single second, you need the entire energy output of our sun. So going up 1 warp factor is many magnitudes higher than the last digit.

Another interesting point: directed energy beams like lasers have no theoretical limit to how much energy they can transmit.

Last edited by shar487a; 01-11-2013 at 12:19 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,477
# 24
01-11-2013, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
Another interesting point: directed energy beams like lasers have no theoretical limit to how much energy they can transmit.
But the machinery generating said beam most definitely has functional limits to how much energy can be channeled without destroying itself.
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# 25
01-11-2013, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
But the machinery generating said beam most definitely has functional limits to how much energy can be channeled without destroying itself.
This is also true... Most materials on earth break down after hitting a certain thermal limit. Stellar objects like pulsars have no such issues, and they can output energy beams that can reach across the cosmos.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 26
01-11-2013, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
But the machinery generating said beam most definitely has functional limits to how much energy can be channeled without destroying itself.
1) A fictional device having a fictional limit is entirely under the control of the author. The author could say it's made of cheddar cheese, or figured a way to use a thermal super-conductor like He-2 to move heat away as fast as it's generated.

2) Sounds like a argument for more weapons mounts.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 460
# 27
01-11-2013, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vrtesseract View Post
but if a escort ever tries to tank....call it kenny...
I dunno, there's a guy in my fleet who can sit at zero impulse and tank a tactical cube in an elite stf with his fleet patrol escort... Some of the escorts have ridiculous survivability, especially with the right pilot behind them.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,238
# 28
01-11-2013, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Deployment? With Cruiser options up to a LTC tac slot (i'm ignoring the lockboxes and special ships) one should be able to use BRF up to T3 .
No, no, I'm talking about the power mechanic changes
Empire Veteran
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Posts: 6,766
# 29
01-11-2013, 12:47 PM
[quote=shar487a;7439731]Sure we can... there are no quantitative figures demonstrating how much more power additional ship sizes require vs. warp core power generation and efficiency -- if you have any official figures, then please link them here.

Quote:
On Federation starships, the warp core usually consists of a matter/antimatter reaction assembly (M/ARA) utilizing deuterium and antideuterium reacting in a dilithium crystal matrix which produces a maximum output of 4,000 teradynes per second. (VOY: "Drone")
from memory alpha, as an example. Though its a fuzzy subject that has been delt with in many off canon ST based pnp games. Even then with no idea of how the baseline is a true matrix of vessel warp core size and its energy output is scetchy at best.

Not to mention that not everyone uses the same technology or fuel sources;

Quote:
During the 23rd century, dilithium crystals were also used in Klingon warp reactions to generate energy at sufficient levels to enable warp flight. A difference noticed in the 24th century was that Klingon engines use a tritium intermix (tritium/antitritium) rather than a deuterium intermix. (DS9: "When It Rains...")


On Romulan starships, a different approach is used; an artificial quantum singularity in the warp core is used to harness the energy necessary to power warp flight. (TNG: "Timescape")
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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Posts: 6,766
# 30
01-11-2013, 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
No, no, I'm talking about the power mechanic changes
oh! My bad! All this debate gets a little confusing after a while.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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