Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,435
# 101
01-13-2013, 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Its you that doesn't understand a flagship. Flagship means nothing more than the lead ship of any group of naval vessels, usually a temporary thing. Prime example being First Contact, the Enterprise was not the flagship of that fleet...until Picard came in and took command, and even then only after the flagship with the...wait for it...flag officer (Admiral Hayes)...was destroyed.
Star Trek deviates somewhat. Individual fleets may or may not have flagships but the Federation (not Starfleet or any individual fleet within Starfleet) has a designated flagship, which has historically always been the Enterprise, presumably for the full duration of each Enterprise's mission. At least the 1701, 1701-A, D, and E were refered to onscreen or in promotional materials as "The Flagship of the Federation." What that means is hard to say but it points to them being the permanent lead ship for civilian and diplomatic operations.

I'm not sure applying real navy/military/legal thinking works for Trek. If a writer "gets it wrong" from a historical perspective or a perspective of terminology, I think with a brand like Trek that subsequent writers need to double down on the errors, misuses, or reappropriations of terminology.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,026
# 102
01-13-2013, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Star Trek deviates somewhat. Individual fleets may or may not have flagships but the Federation (not Starfleet or any individual fleet within Starfleet) has a designated flagship, which has historically always been the Enterprise, presumably for the full duration of each Enterprise's mission. At least the 1701, 1701-A, D, and E were refered to onscreen or in promotional materials as "The Flagship of the Federation." What that means is hard to say but it points to them being the permanent lead ship for civilian and diplomatic operations.

I'm not sure applying real navy/military/legal thinking works for Trek. If a writer "gets it wrong" from a historical perspective or a perspective of terminology, I think with a brand like Trek that subsequent writers need to double down on the errors, misuses, or reappropriations of terminology.
Nope, Trek does it too. Nechayev's flagship was the Gorkon in Descent, Hayes had his flagship in First Contact, the Defiant served as flagship a bunch in DS9. I think the deal with the Enterprise is she generally gets assigned to flag captains, which is basically a commodore. Just means that in an emergency situation, they generally look to this ship when no other flag officer is around. And even THEN, the Enterprise is only ever referred to as the 'flagship of the Federation' once on screen that I can recall, and that was basically a throw away line in Generations.

But that defiantly does not mean there is one, single, flagship. We have plenty of evidence to the contrary.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 285
# 103
01-13-2013, 09:51 PM
federation cilvians should have the right to use better armed ship for protecting their own freighter and use older starfleet designed ships of the tos and early earth nx and it sister classes starsips. starfleet is spread way too thinly with personal and ships to fight frontlines and protect cilvain freights effectively. the solution should be have cilvian refit and build new ships of the older starfleet tos and early earth nx and it sister classes starsips of ship up to tier 3 weapons , slots and hall. starfleet oversees the refit fit and building of the tos and early earth nx and it sister classes starsips in th cilvian ship yards has reserves 8 out of 10 conni constitution, nx classes, oberth, and mirenda class and 2 out of all other classes.

all federation new and newer classes then and including exceliors class starfleet owns and operate in cluding all 25th century ships
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,811
# 104
01-13-2013, 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Nope, Trek does it too. Nechayev's flagship was the Gorkon in Descent, Hayes had his flagship in First Contact, the Defiant served as flagship a bunch in DS9. I think the deal with the Enterprise is she generally gets assigned to flag captains, which is basically a commodore. Just means that in an emergency situation, they generally look to this ship when no other flag officer is around. And even THEN, the Enterprise is only ever referred to as the 'flagship of the Federation' once on screen that I can recall, and that was basically a throw away line in Generations.

But that defiantly does not mean there is one, single, flagship. We have plenty of evidence to the contrary.
The following episodes refer to the Enterprise D as the Federation Flagship
(TNG: "The Icarus Factor", "Sarek", "The High Ground", "Remember Me", "Ensign Ro", "Man of the People", "Chain of Command, Part I", "Starship Mine", "Force of Nature", "Parallels"; Star Trek Generations; DS9: "Bar Association")

The Enterprise being the Flagship of the Federation mostly means it's the mascot of Star Fleet, and the Federation like Mario is for Nintendo.

Paid for by the down with Bajor Party
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,117
# 105
01-13-2013, 11:04 PM
Thats what I assume when I hear the Enterprise as the Federation's flagship, pretty much the flag bearer and main diplomatic vessel.

However, given the size of the Galaxy, it makes a perfect fleet flagship, especially if the ship's command crew are in the battle bridge, while the fleet CO commands from the main bridge.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 886
# 106
01-14-2013, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Star Trek deviates somewhat. Individual fleets may or may not have flagships but the Federation (not Starfleet or any individual fleet within Starfleet) has a designated flagship, which has historically always been the Enterprise, presumably for the full duration of each Enterprise's mission. At least the 1701, 1701-A, D, and E were refered to onscreen or in promotional materials as "The Flagship of the Federation." What that means is hard to say but it points to them being the permanent lead ship for civilian and diplomatic operations.

I'm not sure applying real navy/military/legal thinking works for Trek. If a writer "gets it wrong" from a historical perspective or a perspective of terminology, I think with a brand like Trek that subsequent writers need to double down on the errors, misuses, or reappropriations of terminology.
Was the Enterprise (A) ever refered to as the "Flagship". Granted my knowledge of TOS/TMP era is far from perfect. I basically watched it in in syndicated reruns (and if my knowledge is correct somehow never saw a klingon or Romulan episode no matter how many I saw).

In any case, Other then JJ's lameverse, I don't think I have ever remembered the Enterprise being refered to as the flagship until the D/E era.

My understanding, based mostly on my own opinions (and lack of TOS evidence) was that it was the Enterprises history, via Kirk and later captains, that made it the flagship, but the original Enterprise was just one of many Constitution classes running around doing stuff at the time.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 422
# 107
01-14-2013, 10:53 AM
I don't understand all the hate people seem to have for ships they don't have to fly if they don't like them. There are plenty of viable 'current' designs out there in addition to the 'retrofit' hulls, so there is no reason why both can't co-exist, especially when we're talking about a time when every star empire is desperately scrambling to space as many ships as possible under a constant assault by huge numbers of Borg.

Many people have offered good reasons and real-world examples of how old equipment/ships are retained in service long after what many would consider 'realistic', and continue to be at the top of their unittype (still nothing to equal a B-52 or Iowa class). So the only reason that seems to exist for not wanting these ships in the game is the unwillingness of the proponents for removing them in accepting that the game world of STO might be different than their own ideas as to what ST 'should be'. And isn't that at least partly against some of the core concepts of ST, that dared to be what critics of the time would not consider 'reasonable'?

If you don't like these new commission ships built on old hull configurations, then no one is forcing you to command them. You have other options. If it is a case of 'the grass is greener', then I wonder at your equality in consideration (especially when all the Devs seem to get when they come out with 'new' designs is critisizm that the ship doesn't look like it should). If it is a case that you just don't want to see them at all in 'your' game, please remember that the game encompasses many different people and not just yourself.

Ultimately, there has to be a better logic than 'it would never be done' or 'I don't want to see them in the game' for these ships to be excluded when there is much more solid logic in favor of them being in the game, and that they might actually be proven, reliable designs the shipbuilders in a time of great need might decide to use for some new construction.

My two cents.

P.S.: As far as Flagships go, a Flagship can also be a class of ship for those hulls specifically designed with enhanced communication and tactical display capabilities, intended to provide a Fleet Admiral with better command facilities than would be the case on a typical warship. That is how I see the 'Flagship Cruisers' in STO. This is different from 'flagship' as a TO designation of which ship the group leader is actually using to command the fleet, such as the Enterprise.

Last edited by danqueller; 01-14-2013 at 10:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,117
# 108
01-14-2013, 10:54 AM
It has been referred as the Federation Flagship in many novels and comics. It may never have been referred on screen, but it pretty much is THE starship to send in despite the fact there are larger and more modern starships.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 366
# 109
01-14-2013, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldarion79 View Post
It has been referred as the Federation Flagship in many novels and comics. It may never have been referred on screen, but it pretty much is THE starship to send in despite the fact there are larger and more modern starships.
Reguardless of the fact that the Enterprise was referred to as the Federation Flagship in TNG (see further up the thread for a full list of episodes) the mere name Enterprise by the time of TNG has a long and prestigious history, many crew members coming on board or leaving the Enterprise in TNG commented that it was an honour to be considered a member of the Enterprise's crew and several times it was made clear that Riker could have his pick of the fleet to Captain if he decided to leave the Enterprise.

It's pretty clear to me that being a member of the Enterprise Crew is tantamount to being among the best in your field, even Reginald Barclay, who could be considered amongst the worst crew members on board the Enterprise went on to great things, although he went about those as awkwardly as his duties onboard the Enterprise.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,679
# 110
01-14-2013, 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoakiraii View Post
The Enterprise being the Flagship of the Federation mostly means it's the mascot of Star Fleet, and the Federation like Mario is for Nintendo.
One only need look at the combadge to see this, since when Starfleet decided to switch from ship-specific patches to a fleet-wide patch, they picked the Enterprise's design.
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