Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 21
01-13-2013, 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Although in all honesty Fleet Vor'Cha is the tac cruiser.
Oh, I agree completely. Fleet Vor'cha/Tor'Kaht Retrofit is the best damage dealing battlecruiser in the game. But that's off topic, and it's not a fed ship XD.

BACK ON TOPIC OF BEAM ARRAYS!!!! XD XD XD
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 146
# 22
01-13-2013, 05:59 AM
Actually isn't it "Diamonds in the ROUGH?"
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 23
01-13-2013, 06:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedman70 View Post
Actually isn't it "Diamonds in the ROUGH?"
Didn't want to risk any copyright infringement. And yes, it is diamonds in the rough. But since we're dealing with ships, I figured rust was far more appropriate anyways.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 24
01-13-2013, 07:28 AM
The ability to hit a target is meaningless if you don't do any worthwhile damage when you do. Beam arrays are crippled by their power drain mechanics to the point that it requires significant effort just to prevent your weapon power from diving through the floor when you open fire.

Beam tactics are also kind of crap. Fire At Will is only a great ability with arrays when you're dealing with tiny and easy to kill targets, or, with a single target. It's a handicap in most combat situations. The reason is that BFAW targets everything randomly, scattering hits across everything within range. For fighters this is fine since they can only survive 1 or 2 hits anyway. For large ships, this means doing minor shield damage to a variety of targets instead of significant shield and hull damage to a single target. Cannon Spread is much better in this regard because it focuses hits on only targets within a relatively narrow cone, which lets you focus your damage output in a meaningful way. BFAW also works dramatically better with Dual Beams for the same reason.

Firing arcs? Compare 2 beam arrays to 2 turrets. You'll lose some hypothetical damage off your broadside but gain true 360 degree damage output, pay less in energy drain, and gain access to superior tactical abilities. The only place turret-boats really miss out on is damage over range.

And if we argue that popularity is an indication of performance, you can't argue "dual cannons need to be massively buffed because nobody uses them" without throwing beam arrays into the same bin. I see more escorts using dual cannons than are using beam arrays.

Engineering as the answer to beam array's drawbacks? Nooooot so much. You have two abilities that affect power, one that completely solves the problem and one that kind of mitigates it, both of them with gratuitously long cooldown times. Batteries? Even worse duty cycle than engineering abilities.

Heck, even EPTW which I thought helped enormously with this problem has proven to be rather unreliable now that I've started really looking into this, due to the kludgy way power overcapping works.

What makes the whole situation even more frustrating is that it makes no logical sense. The fact that power drain is instantly refunded at the end of a firing cycle and the fact that you get one weapon firing "for free" makes the system behave as though it has an infinite power generation potential and the only limitation is transmission through your power grid. In which case why wouldn't you just build your ship to have a single beam weapon with an utterly absurd power conduit connected directly to your infinite reactor. Dual heavy cannons LOOK like a way to increase burst damage within the limits of the power grid by trickle-charging a bank of capacitors and then ramming the whole lot into your weapon in one violent discharge, but they don't work that way at all because they should be draining around 5 power per second constantly instead of 12 for 2 and then 3 seconds of sleeping.

And just to put the cherry on top, I've never seen any indication that the developers care about this topic at all. Which means any and all discussion is irrelevant. Which is very depressing.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 25
01-13-2013, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
And if we argue that popularity is an indication of performance, you can't argue "dual cannons need to be massively buffed because nobody uses them" without throwing beam arrays into the same bin. I see more escorts using dual cannons than are using beam arrays.
Because it would make no sense and that's not the topic. The purpose of the topic is to see if the complaints about beam arrays are justified or it's just eng/cruisers complaining about tac/escorts who complain about sci/sci ship who complain about eng/cruisers, and so on. From my point of view it's rather a matter of how you play the game and how envious you are.

I really have no issue with my eng on a cruiser, sure, i can't dps like mad but it's definitely not the purpose of cruisers, they're healboats and ifyou fit them and use them well they'll do a decent amount of damage too. On a typical cure space elite/klingon scout force instance i'll do half or more of the dps a good tac can do and i'll be healing the whole team (if i want to). That's definitely not insignificant.

I don't get how you can get into trouble with your power levels and fire at will with the new borg set. I'm using it currently and with batteries, EPTW, nadion inversion, and just one purple Mk XII EPS console, i'm doing well and my beams never fire under 100 weapon power. I think you're just confused because the power levels can drop to 80 in rare occasions but it's right after a FAW fire cycle, and it doesn't mean your beam fired at 80, there's some time for your power levels to increase before the new cycle. Don't look at figures, loot at the power levels when your beams fire. It makes a great difference and you'll see it's not that bad.

Of course playing a cruiser is harder than playing a tac with cannons, because even if you're completely stupid and not using half of your boff abilities, your escort will still do some damage, but it doesn't mean beams or cruiser sucks, it means you can get better at it.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-13-2013 at 08:28 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,448
# 26
01-13-2013, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Beam tactics are also kind of crap. Fire At Will is only a great ability with arrays when you're dealing with tiny and easy to kill targets, or, with a single target. It's a handicap in most combat situations. The reason is that BFAW targets everything randomly, scattering hits across everything within range. For fighters this is fine since they can only survive 1 or 2 hits anyway. For large ships, this means doing minor shield damage to a variety of targets instead of significant shield and hull damage to a single target. Cannon Spread is much better in this regard because it focuses hits on only targets within a relatively narrow cone, which lets you focus your damage output in a meaningful way. BFAW also works dramatically better with Dual Beams for the same reason.
Would the solution to this then be to simply split FAW into FAW (single target) and FAW (multiple target) BO powers? I think doing that would put a lot of pressure on engineering based beam boats to find enough tacslots to be versatile. Maybe implement new functionality into the BO ability, that allows you to change it's type ingame without it costing another BO slot?
nynik | Join Date: Dec 2009
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 27
01-13-2013, 09:18 AM
All cannon users and rejecting arguments of beam users are just up to protect their enornmous advantage they currently have. I say that, as someone, who mainly uses cannons.


One of the major argument is, that the firing arc of cannons is very narrow in comparsion with beam arrays. But that is not true. To deal any noticable damage, beam user need to broadside, which means, they have to keep their target in an 90 deg arc. Most beam users, however, fly fed cruisers with low turn rates, which makes it at much as difficult to effectively use beams as cannons.

Another very specialized beam are dual beam banks. Dual beam banks make only sense, when used as burst damage tool with beam overload. Combinign 3-4 beam arrays with turrets back will fall behind compared to using 3-4 DHCs with turrets back, escpacially because CRF and CSV.

In my opionen, there should be heavy front beam arrays, that do damage of dual beam banks when fired in an arc of up to 90 deg. If fired in an higher arc up to 180 deg. they do the damage of normal cannons, and above this arc, the damage of normal beam arrays.

This would allow to do beam users more foreward directed damage and damage spikes using beam overload without equiping a dual beam bank and, therefore, reducing the broadside damage.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 28
01-13-2013, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your supposedly epic fleet excel is not the best tac cruiser in the game for damage output... The fleet regent is...
I second that! Change one point of turn for an extra tac boff power??!! Yes please!

Also, everyone knows cool looking ships give their player a psychological advantage!

The only way the fleet A-cruiser could be cooler is if you could paint it red and add racing stripes....

Last edited by skyranger1414; 01-13-2013 at 09:54 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 29
01-13-2013, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw;7463111
Beam tactics are also kind of crap. Fire At Will is [b
only[/b] a great ability with arrays when you're dealing with tiny and easy to kill targets, or, with a single target.
I'm pretty sure FAW is not meant to be a DPS booster, at least that is not its primary purpose. I think its meant to "clear the skies" and help grab agro from every NPC in range.

Also, why is everyone simply ignoring the obvious. If you feel beams are too weak you can always upgrade to single cannons. They have better DPS at the cost of firing arc. You can then use all those tasty cannon boff powers that everyone seems to want. [/sarcasm] Besides since "everyone knows" that the range limitations in cannons don't matter its virtually a guaranteed win for a cruiser! [/sarcasm]

Last edited by skyranger1414; 01-13-2013 at 10:21 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,069
# 30
01-13-2013, 10:39 AM
Fire At Will is an Area-affect attack upgrade. Any DPS increase is secondary.
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