Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 1 PvP concerns
01-18-2013, 06:58 PM
New year, new possibilites and new concerns. So ive found some new "complaints" i want to put in light, and yet again i want peoples input on the matter.


Transphasic, in particular mines.

Trannie mines needs a look on. These mines do way too much damage in comparison to other mines, with the exception of tricobalts. If the crit link happens, half the huill of a cruiser is gone and is just way too powerful in light of balance, and in comparison to other mines. I would like to see either the damage value lowered or the shield penetration rate reduced.

Remove defense value tied to speed

In light of Thisslers thread regarding defense, i have to concure. Speed tied to defense should be removed as it gives escorts superiority in both defense and offense. They already deal ALOT of damage, then why the blazes is it too given the best defense value as well? That just doesnt make sense at all, and is turning STO to Escort Online. The defense value should not be removed from the game but rather given a fixed value based on ship class. This would balance out defense between ships. Actually it will make engineers in cruisers more valuable, and not sitting ducks to a tractor beaming escort taking down a cruiser in a split second, because his defense was reduced to 0 due to no speed.


Remove movement immunity buff from APO

If defense tied to speed wont be altered i would liked to see the movement buff from APO removed. Currently its possible to have permanent uptime on APO using appropiate doffs and double copy of APO. This alone offers the best defense value along with a raw damage bonus which makes escort yet again the best ship in the game, and the remainder sitting ducks. If we are looking to balance the game and the ships, escorts cant have all the goodies while the other 2 classes sit with the mediocre stuff.


Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.

Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over. To prevent this from going overboard, i would like to see an immunity buff given after a ship has been exposed to it once, like they gave to most science skills. Im aware you can use a hazard emitter to remove it, but as long as you drift the EWP AOE you will constantly reapply it until you clear it. Worse is the effect lingers on your ship after you cleared the AOE effect, prolonging the torture. Right now EWP offers a movement halt and it gives the user zone control, along with damage which goes straigh to hull. In my opinion this is just way too much benefit for one skill alone.


So please dicuss.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,738
# 2
01-18-2013, 07:15 PM
Perm uptime to APO?

Wtf, since when?


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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,791
# 3
01-18-2013, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
New year, new possibilites and new concerns. So ive found some new "complaints" i want to put in light, and yet again i want peoples input on the matter.


Transphasic, in particular mines.

Trannie mines needs a look on. These mines do way too much damage in comparison to other mines, with the exception of tricobalts. If the crit link happens, half the huill of a cruiser is gone and is just way too powerful in light of balance, and in comparison to other mines. I would like to see either the damage value lowered or the shield penetration rate reduced.

Remove defense value tied to speed

In light of Thisslers thread regarding defense, i have to concure. Speed tied to defense should be removed as it gives escorts superiority in both defense and offense. They already deal ALOT of damage, then why the blazes is it too given the best defense value as well? That just doesnt make sense at all, and is turning STO to Escort Online. The defense value should not be removed from the game but rather given a fixed value based on ship class. This would balance out defense between ships. Actually it will make engineers in cruisers more valuable, and not sitting ducks to a tractor beaming escort taking down a cruiser in a split second, because his defense was reduced to 0 due to no speed.


Remove movement immunity buff from APO

If defense tied to speed wont be altered i would liked to see the movement buff from APO removed. Currently its possible to have permanent uptime on APO using appropiate doffs and double copy of APO. This alone offers the best defense value along with a raw damage bonus which makes escort yet again the best ship in the game, and the remainder sitting ducks. If we are looking to balance the game and the ships, escorts cant have all the goodies while the other 2 classes sit with the mediocre stuff.


Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.

Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over. To prevent this from going overboard, i would like to see an immunity buff given after a ship has been exposed to it once, like they gave to most science skills. Im aware you can use a hazard emitter to remove it, but as long as you drift the EWP AOE you will constantly reapply it until you clear it. Worse is the effect lingers on your ship after you cleared the AOE effect, prolonging the torture. Right now EWP offers a movement halt and it gives the user zone control, along with damage which goes straigh to hull. In my opinion this is just way too much benefit for one skill alone.


So please dicuss.
While we're at it, you can add an "I Win" button to cruisers (and only cruisers), since your beef appears to be with primarily Escorts, but the powers you list turn up on all sorts of other frames, including sci ships, and even some of the higher tier cruisers.

EWP is one of the few engineering powers that works outside (offensive) the hull, and has a broader utility than self-buffing. YES, ti's a hold, and YES, it does damage, and YES, it's hard to clear...it's also highly visible and only a threat when your (usually escort) ship is right on top of the user's path of travel. (unlike those Sci powers you mentioned, you can't "aim" EWP, your opposition has to drive INTO it!) Protecting people from their own stupidity probably is NOT the best purpose for altering the rules. One's mileage may vary on this, of course-but generally speaking unless you're either highly reliant o pet-spam, or you like to fight from the distance of the other guy's shorts, the counter to an EWP cloud already exists-it's called keeping your distance.

Transphasic Mines:

aren't a big deal. Unlike Trics, they aren't AOE weapons with huge secondary effects (knockign out subsystems, etc.), and if you enter into PvP expecting immunity from damage, well...go back to playing 'normal" STFs, please. They really aren't that powerful, and they don't crit that often, AND, they require all the saem things other minefield types require in order to work-proximity before they trigger, and a target that can't outrun them.

Said situation is relatively rare outside the spawn point in Ker'rat...

Now, considering that there ARE things that do not have a counter (the lobi-purchased temporal abilities/weapons), but you're apparently fine with those things, complaining about relatively mundane, simple things that are universally available (as opposed to purchased for exorbitant prices), to all factions (every faction, not just one), and have been in the game for years and years without breaking balance (and all of the things you listed have)...I won't say "learn to play", but I will state my belief that you're having a tantrum over nothing.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 4
01-18-2013, 07:29 PM
I will say over and over until my lips are as chapped as the cliffs of Dover that anyone who thinks STO is Escorts Online isn't playing the same game I am.

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,738
# 5
01-18-2013, 07:31 PM
Yeah, the only thing that needs to be done is to make HE clear EWP for just a little longer than it does now.

There's no need to go and add an immunity to an already expensive power.


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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,195
# 6
01-18-2013, 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Transphasic, in particular mines.
The issue with these, imo, is the same issue that was not addressed with the Trics. It's an issue that exists with other things like EWP as well. One Crit, All Crit.

Trannies have been around for quite sometime - and - they were never complained about. Several folks espoused the use of them - but people preferred going the standard energy weapon (DHC) route.

It really wasn't until the Elite Fleet Shields bug arose that more and more folks started using Trans as part of their build (in particular, the Breen Cluster) and playing off of that One Crit, All Crit system in the game engine.

It was the case of running Rapid Trans Fore with a Cluster or two - DPB Trans Mines, Rapid, and Cluster Aft... nothing new. Nothing that was complained about. People kind of laughed at Trannie builds. Heck, the "Trannie" name for them is a derogatory name in its own right.

With more folks adding the Clusters or the Mines, it's become more prevalent - more noticeable. So that calls into question whether they're actually broken/OP - or - if it's something that people need to take into consideration defending against like anything else.

If you drop shields on somebody, other torps/mines are going to do more damage. There are quite a few things that have been worked into trying to balance them...it would be interesting to see everything laid out comparing both the torps and mines to other flavors of them.

That being said, though, it's definitely fun to add Plasma into the mix for some good hull eating fun... as well as taking the KineticProc which is 5% on torps/mines (vs 2.5% directed energy).

Yep, popping somebody with full shields is even better because of the Hyper, Omega, and the passive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove defense value tied to speed
I'd say it's not so much that defense value is tied to speed - as much as it is a case of the speeds (including turn) available to certain ships. They move/turn faster/better than fighters. It's painfully illogical to have "large" ships moving in a manner one would expect from a fighter - everybody on the ship should be strapped down to a chair and there shouldn't be any objects not locked down. It's mind boggling.

However, that doesn't mean that defense shouldn't be tied to speed - rather - that the speeds/turn need to be addressed.

At the same time though, mind you, if movement gives a bonus to defense...it should also reduce accuracy. The same thing that's making you harder to hit, should be making it harder for you to hit...no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove movement immunity buff from APO
If the Defense buff included the logical Accuracy debuff... well, then APO needs to be redesigned in general, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.
Overall, there's a severe lack of DR/Immunity/Hardening/Resists etc in STO compared to many other games out there where you'll typically see something like:

Full Effect, Reduced Effect, Reduced Effect, Immunity.

Ships should be able to harden, either temporarily or permanently against certain CC abilities. Temporary cleanses should also provide either an extended immunity or a reduction to the effect.

CC in general in STO is all sorts of...illogical...odd...borked.

With it being a primarily PvE game, it's something that simply was never given much consideration...the NPCs don't use the abilities anywhere near as often as a player can and does - so it's literally nothing that really came up.

edit: Even if it were something like the following...

Ability I - just a cleanse.
Ability II - cleanse + temp resistance/reduced effect
Ability III - cleanse + temp immunity
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 01-18-2013 at 08:02 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,195
# 7
01-18-2013, 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Transphasic Mines:

aren't a big deal. Unlike Trics, they aren't AOE weapons with huge secondary effects (knockign out subsystems, etc.), and if you enter into PvP expecting immunity from damage, well...go back to playing 'normal" STFs, please. They really aren't that powerful, and they don't crit that often, AND, they require all the saem things other minefield types require in order to work-proximity before they trigger, and a target that can't outrun them.
Trans Mines are very much AoE weapons - whether you're talking clusters or regular mines. They will affect multiple targets if they are close enough.

Though, it's generally going to be a case of clearing pet spam or destroying groups of NPCs in PvE. Players have too many options available to them to avoid getting caught up in it.

Against pets/NPCs though, Aux Batt that GW - fire off the Fore Cluster, fly through dropping the DPB'd mines...and both the cluster/mines will damage multiple targets. As I mentioned in the other post, add some plasma to this - firing off the TS Hyper after the DPB...good pet/NPC shredding fun.

As for the crit? They have as much chance to crit as anything else - depending on modifiers and skill build. But...because of the CDs on either the mines or clusters - there's going to be fewer opportunities for them to crit. They're just not fired as often.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 8
01-18-2013, 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post

Now, considering that there ARE things that do not have a counter (the lobi-purchased temporal abilities/weapons), but you're apparently fine with those things, complaining about relatively mundane, simple things that are universally available (as opposed to purchased for exorbitant prices), to all factions (every faction, not just one), and have been in the game for years and years without breaking balance (and all of the things you listed have)...I won't say "learn to play", but I will state my belief that you're having a tantrum over nothing.
When did i say that? And when have I ever advocated for abilties which cant be countered? Maybe you should be very careful on putting words in other peoples mouths. I take that highly offensive.

And my tantrum as you call it, is just abilities im pondering over and have observed of late being as unblanaced as when the tric mines were called for foul play. But then again other people claimed trics are easy to deal with etc etc.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 9
01-18-2013, 08:23 PM
What nags me is that people are looking at the abilities listed soley by themselves. Dont people ever think that a player will be intelligent enough to use a tractor to make sure you get hit by the EWP, or by that Breen trannie cluster? Hell yes they will, and hence the problem arises. Just as trics where put in a bad light when used in combination with something that ensures its hit, is causing this same issue.

When it comes to the defense value it easy to see that defense rises when the ship starts to move. Just open your ship sheet and look at defense at 0 speed and at full speed. The defense value shoots up like mad. Add an evasive and holy heck. Is it no wonder why escorts seems to survive so much better then other classes, by being able to flee fastest and intercept fleeing ships fastest due to inertia.

Regarding APO`s immunity buff to movement gives escorts a sole advantage. They can EASY avoid any combo involving movement debuffs with trics, EWP, trannies <insert ability here> while other classes cant. That grants escorts WAY more survivability then others by a far margin. How is this remotly fair or balanced to cruisers and science ships?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,801
# 10
01-18-2013, 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Transphasic, in particular mines.
tranny builds are popular right now, and are pretty painful. but really, the only part i would say is overpowered is a very highly buffed breen cluster torp. that is overpowered right now, all the other more piecemeal tranny damage i think is at a good level

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove defense value tied to speed
im still not completely convinced this is necessary, because when holds do get a chance to work, it turns off the extremely good defense score, and the ability to stay out of enemy fire arks that make escorts so seemingly tanky. take that away and an escort is very fragile. APO is far to powerful a defensive tool, literally a get out of jail free card to everything. APO and PH can give hold immunity, and the placates break holds as well. its to easy for an escort not to have its defense score taken away is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove movement immunity buff from APO
i agree, more or less. though you can still only use it to its global, think its only about a 33% up time. at least it should be toned down a bit, maybe have it buff ID's instead wile its on


Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.

Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over.
k, as proboly the # 1 abuser of this ability of late, i can tell you its NOT easy to truly pin someone, or purma hold them. it certainly cant be done at all to escorts, again APO laughs at EWP clouds like they arent there. HE will clear the hold too, but it wont dig you out automatically. you need to not be touching the cloud 3 or 4 tics into HE's clear or HE will stop removing the engine debuff. frankly thats balanced.

most ships can pretty easily tank the DOT, if its not a ship that can just APO their way out of it. only the most plasma tac console'd, particle gen filled, plasma energy weapon using ship can really make EWP3's damage a true danger. and only slow cruisers have that comander eng. its hard to even lay a cloud tactically with such slow moving, low maneuverability ships. the quicker ships that can slot EWP1 can use it for a hold, but its DOT is basically a non issue.

slotting all those holds have an opportunity cost in heals for them selves or the team too. these plasma and hold spammers are delicate, trust me i main them. well, taking a break from them right now actually.
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