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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,159
# 11
01-14-2013, 12:16 AM
@inktomi19:

Yeah, I should have probably put that under heals. It wasn't a planned post, so the commentary section is kind of a ramble and quick sharing of thoughts on how there are multiple levels.

My two Engs are built somewhat differently - my Fed tends to be "selfish" with it while my KDF guy will usually drop it out on somebody else...whether they're going in for the kill, trying not to be killed, or running a Sci ship and having good ol' fun.

@guriphu:

Yeah, it was just a quick blurb about how folks should look a little outside the box as well as trying to reference some of the common ways that folks will look at things.

It's kill or be killed - two things, spread to the team. Even later when you break it down to three - it's really only two. Attempts to control the battlefield are really just about trying to kill the guys on the other team or trying to keep the guys on your team from being killed.

Unfortunately with looking at it that way, it actually all overlaps. Everything becomes everything. Killing the guy prevents him from killing you. Being killed fails to kill him. Etc, etc, etc - so different folks are going to look at it from different levels.

Personally, I think that's fine. People are going to think about it differently. My only hope is that they at least recognize that there's a forest there beyond the trees they're looking at... it's that first step. Beyond that, there's just so many variables that will come into play - there's a need for flexibility that can't be outlined with pretty words and spreadsheets.

@dontdrunkimshoot:

I like my Eng's to an extent. It's just a case of seeing what they don't bring to a team compared to other careers. Dorking around in Ker'rat, hanging out in PUGland, and even doing most PvE content - they're fine.

Push that to the highly competitive, whether PvE or PvP...well...I tend not to do that.

In the casual world, whether PvE or PvP - I think the Eng is fun. There's no denying the selfish aspect of it and the lack of debuffs, though. Both Tac and Sci buff/debuff. So it's not just a case of looking to SNB them, but you're also looking at using Teams to clear their debuffs. There's not that concern with the Eng. They just don't bring the goodies to that level of play.

So I play at the level I do with the two of them and they do fine there. It's about knowing their limitations and trying to play to them - build around them - try to do the best possible with them. Tends to work better in PvE than PvP because NPCs simply aren't Players. I know you're part of that crowd that wants NPCs to have more access to Player goodies. I'm one too, even though it would mean my Engs would be less effective...but then, maybe Cryptic would look at it. As is, we as Players are so OP for NPCs - it doesn't really matter what you bring for the vast majority of content. You could take 5 Engs into ISE and complete the optional if they build for it. That's just the way PvE is...

@snoge00f:

Engineer defines selfish, that's for sure. I still think the lack of debuff is what sets them apart more. Being able to drop out NI, RSF, or MW on a teammate still leaves them somewhat one-sided. Outside of the "oh snap" MW - it's still subject to SNB.

If they had a debuff - then it's also a case of bringing in Teams. It creates that additional opportunity cost.

@inktomi19 & dontdrunkimshoot:

Why does the Eng have to be cemented as the healer? I mean, that kind of ignores the five innates.

That Tac pops out their buffs and drops out FoMM on a Sci. The Sci SNBs and TTs... well, that Tac is no more of a threat than if there was an Eng in that boat. They're actually less of a threat than if a Sci was in that boat, imo.

Is it a case of looking at BOFF abilities?

3 of 14 abilities are "heals" - 2 hull and 1 shield. 2 of them provide resist/damage reduction as well as the heal. The 1 that doesn't, does provide a cleanse.

3 of 14 Sci abilities are "heals" - 1 hull and 2 shield. 2 of them provide resist/damage reduction as well as the heal. The 1 that doesn't, does provide a cleanse. Even 1 that does provide the resist/damage reduction also provides a cleanse.

EPtS/RSP(even AtD's resistance) - aren't team heals. They're self heals. That's survival/tank - not "healer" since they're not being used on other members of the team.

Given the focus on shield healing, Sci having two shield heals - wouldn't it be a case that the Sci guy would be the healer? Well, the Sci BOFFs do other stuff as well. Well, so do the Eng BOFFs.

The Eng is about getting the most out of your ship. It's almost a Secondary Career, if one were to look at it... it's the stuff that "everybody" could use. Tac and Sci are very different in that aspect. Well, Tac's about getting the most out of your ship's weapons and some trying to get into position to use them...as well as some things one cannot deny simply make sense from a tactical overview. Sci has the bag of tricks, the "plot armor/weapons" that Spock, Data, Seven, etc, etc, etc, might come up with to get out of a sticky situation. It's also stuff that Scotty, Geordi, etc, etc, etc might come up with - it's a mixed bag of Sci and Eng tricks.

One can easily see where everything's mixed up in looking at how Eng/Sci/Tac Teams treat things. They counter debuffs outside of their realm. That's before you get into DOFFs and some of the the all over the place you get there. TSS clearing boarding parties?

It just comes off as folks thinking along the lines of the Trinity - seeing that both Tac and Sci tend to have somewhat better defined roles...there's no need for the Tank, so the Eng should be the healer - not because there's anything that the Eng has to be the healer - but because they simply do not have what the Tac and Sci have. As is, for that Eng to be a healer - they're going to be running Sci abilities to get it done.

This is all from looking at the Eng in Space. What if we look at the Eng on the Ground though? Okay, let's not do that - eh? Cause it only gets worse as you look at the three careers on the ground and then in space. Well, not for Tac - Tac's pretty much Tac on the ground or in space. Eng and Sci... well... yeah.

Again though, to what extent does all of that matter when the only difference between the three careers are the five innate abilities? Yes, there is the synergy between those five and how you spend your skill points/pick a ship/select your BOFF abilities. There's also the balance that offers. If you've got an innate defensive ability, it presents the opportunity to go more offensive somewhere else. That's not min/max though - that's opportunity cost. Though, even min/max should take into account opportunity cost.

There are a lot of folks that min/max for sheer damage - but they never get to do that damage because they've popped like a ripe zit. There are other folks that will sacrifice some of that sheer damage for the ability to deliver the damage. Others will depend on somebody else to try to keep them alive. Etc, etc, etc.

Okay, I've gone all over the place with this. It just bugs me when folks want to make the Eng the healer. That's how this thread came to be in the first place. There's not really anything there to suggest that the Eng should be the healer. It's just that the Eng's not a Tac nor is the Eng bringing the bag of tricks the Sci has... so... tada, make the Eng the healer. But again, you'd be better off bringing the Sci or the Tac as the healer. Having the Eng being able to drop MW out on somebody every four minutes wouldn't change that.

If one looks at Sci, there's three abilities that make it easier to kill the target and two abilities to make it harder for the target to kill somebody on the team. Rather than it being a case of making the Eng a "healer" - why not look at it from that angle? Have the Eng with three abilities that make it harder for the target to kill somebody on the team and two abilities to make it easier to kill the target. Primary Offensive Support and Primary Defensive Support.

Cause spend the 300k SP the same way, pick the same ship, pick the same BOFFs. What's the difference?

Engineer:
Every 2 minutes for 30 seconds, they can can regen shields while increasing the shield damage reduction for themselves.
(Every 2 minutes for 1 minute and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)
Every 2 minutes for 30 seconds, they can buff the power levels and power transfer rate for themselves or an ally.
(Every 2 minutes for 1 minute and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)
Every 3 minutes for 30 seconds, they can increase drain resistance for themselves.
(Every 3 minutes for 2 minutes and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)
Every 4 minutes, they can toss out a hull/shield heal for themselves.
(Every 4 minutes for 4 minutes, they can't.)
Every 5 minutes for 30 seconds, they can increase damage resistance, hull repair skill, and warp core potential skill for the team.
(Every 5 minutes for 4 minutes and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)

Science:
Every 2 minutes for 20 seconds, they can debuff damage resistance and stealth for a target or group of targets.
(Every 2 minutes for 1 minute and 40 seconds, they can't. Can be cleansed.)
Every 2 minutes, they can strip buffs and debuff ability recharge for 30s on a target.
(Every 2 minutes for 2 minutes, they can't. The debuff can be cleansed.)
Every 3 minutes for 30 seconds, they can buff energy damage resistance for themselves and those around them.
(Every 3 minutes for 2 minutes and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)
Every 4 minutes, they can summon holographic combat pets.
(Every 4 minutes for 4 minutes, they can't. Who knows how long the pets will last? If they'll even just despawn.)
Every 5 minutes for 30 seconds, they can increase shield damage reduction, shield emitters skill, and power insulators skill for the team.
(Every 5 minutes for 4 minutes and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)

Tactical:
Every 2 minutes for 30 seconds, they can buff damage, critical chance, critical damage, and turn rate for themselves.
(Every 2 minutes for 1 minute and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)
Every 2 minutes for 30 seconds, they can debuff damage resistance and stealth on a target.
(Every 2 minutes for 1 minute and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be cleansed.)
Every 3 minutes for 45 seconds, they can buff the Tac BOFF ability recharge on themselves or an ally.
(Every 3 minutes for 2 minutes and 15 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)
Every 4 minutes for 60 seconds, they can get a scaling damage buff based on their hull for themselves.
(Every 4 minutes for 3 minutes, they can't. Can be stripped.)
Every 5 minutes for 30 seconds, they can increase damage, accuracy, and defense for the team.
(Every 5 minutes for 4 minutes and 30 seconds, they can't. Can be stripped.)

In considering the strips and cleanses, the strip CD is going to be the same or lower than the CD on the buff being used. The cleanse is going to have a much shorter CD than the debuff CD.

So if we take Thomas (Eng), Richard (Sci), and Harold (Tac) - drop them in a Bug with the same 300k SP and BOFFs - those are the differences that you're looking at.

But it goes beyond that, because of the ally/team/target/AoE target/PBAoE nature of some of the abilities.

If Tom's in a Bug and Harry's in a Recluse - Harry can still FoMM Tom's target. Harry can still TacInit Tom's Tac BOFFs. Harry can still TFleet.

If Tom's in a Bug and ****'s in a D'Kora - **** can still SNB Tom's target. **** can still Sensor Scan Tom's target. **** can still drop out Scattering Field, Photonic Fleet, and SFleet.

Kind of like **** can still drop out his stuff if Harry were in the Bug or Harry could drop out his stuff if **** were in the Bug.

You can put a Tac or a Sci in the "wrong" ship and they still offer something. I don't want to get into the discussion of what's a wrong ship - it's just an example - please go with the gist, which I'm sure you understand.

Well, that's all great and nifty - but what's Tom bringing? Well, he can drop out EPS PT or EFleet... but uh... uh yeah.

I know it looks like I'm both dismissing the importance of the five innate abilities while pointing out the importance of them, but that's kind of how I see it. I see it as both. I believe I even pointed out how I see it that way earlier.

Tac: Buff (Self/Ally/Team) and Debuff (Target)
Sci: Buff (Self/Ally/Team), Debuff (Target/AoE Target), and Summon (PBAoE)
Eng: Buff (Self/Ally/Team)

It's more "difficult" to deal with the Sci and Tac. You're looking at potentially multiple SNBs and Teams. With the Eng? Er...meh...

...this post has been all over the place. I guess I do have a TLDR for this:

I think people put too much emphasis on the five innate abilities but at the same time those innate abilities make it pretty clear that the Eng can be left at home...

edit: Lol, it censored Richard's short name...meh. Guess I could have gone with Rich or Rick, but c'mon - it's Tom, ****, and Harry...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 01-14-2013 at 12:19 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,813
# 12
01-14-2013, 01:59 AM
Intriguing post. Do you have any ideas (however ambitious), other than popping engi innates on teammates, that could make the engi a more defined, independent class?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,703
# 13
01-14-2013, 03:03 AM
great post virus, Engiers are deep in da funk, and just because i can still pop a tac cube iwth my eng/cruiser doesn't mean that the class isn't in deep trouble in space.

Comparing the usefulness and dmg potential of ground vs space is quite enlightening as well. Sci is ground healer, and eng can do *gasp* dmg.

The main problem is the subsystem energy inflation, and brokeness of beams and beam skills that make both engie energy powers obsolete. Why not introduce some team component to engie skills. Ie MW stays self, but clears all subsystem offline for the whole team (like ET without hull heal). RSF could have similar team effects, this would turn engies into desired team members.

THe energy skills need a revamp either on the weapons end, on the end of fixing acc bug with BO and F@W, Team batteries need to go, or maybe allow eng to overcap energy differently frmo other classes 150 instead of 125. This would give the Engie the bite it needs to be back in the same courtyard to sci and tac when dmg is concerned. Anybody saying that NI, APA, and SNB are equally valuable to your team is kiddin themselves hard.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 01-14-2013 at 03:56 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 14
01-14-2013, 03:04 AM
I'm glad to see this thread get some attention.
I tryed starting one of these myself but it never got any attention.
I love flying my Engineer Defiant in PvE and pug PvP.
But in a competetive enviroment a Tactical or Science will simply do better, because like said above, their innate skills aren't so selfish.

Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008

Last edited by obertheromulan; 01-14-2013 at 03:09 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,399
# 15
01-14-2013, 08:39 AM
Just for example, tactical as a captain, is not about getting the most out of your ships weapons. Just look at the captains abilities again and you'll see that isn't true.

Abilities/Powers or Things that have Names in The Game all follow a format for how they behave.

It's a very simple one. How they relate to each other is also very simple.

Tactical application of these abilities, is not. And that's where you're having this huge text generating monster coming loose on the forums. That can cause a bit of confusion.

As an aside and by way of example having a cruiser around with an engineer in it can be very handy. A cruiser can use minimal abilities to keep itself secure, leaving higher level abilites to buff or preserve the less sturdy members of the team. A tactical ship that wastes an attack on a cruiser leaves themselves wide open for a counterstrike as it is a simple truth that the best offense tac ship buffs are also thier best defensive ones. DO NOT bother yourself with getting into 'oh well b can nuc a and the c is totally ****ed so a is just garbage to have around'. It really doesnt lead to solid discussions on what works or doesn't. To many assumptions.

Something that does work is checking the number of boff/captain abilites that need to be run to make a ship it's most effective. Tacticals in escorts require the largest investment, engineers in cruisers require the fewest.

So there's a wide scope of discussion on tactics. But there isn't a wide scope of discussion on what abilites do or don't do. Those are defined. There is no "however you want to look at it".
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.

Last edited by thissler; 01-14-2013 at 08:40 AM. Reason: Was way to long so I cut one word. Now it's fine.
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