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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,744
# 41
01-15-2013, 08:57 AM
In other words, buff mah Eng!


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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 42
01-15-2013, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
no built in player abilities? there wouldn't be captain types then


as a fan of tacs an all sorts of things, because of what they can bring to each ship type, im afraid i am completely against this. there is a great deal of fun and synergy to be had when not patching ship type and captain type. i don't think its silly that escorts can subnuk if their captain is a scientist, or that a cruiser can use APA when the captain is a tac officer. this game is all about you being a superhero/captain, so your captain making that big of a difference is par for the course.

instead of throwing that all out, its the under performing captain that needs fixing. when every captain type has useful synergy in every ship type things will be fixed. i think captains should stay a unique type, and bring their specialty with them.
One of the hugely ridiculous things is Alpha. And what it brings. It you had said "one of the things I really love is engineers and the wonder they bring to all things trekkie" well, then we could have sat down, cuddled and all sorts of "going where no...."

Okay. Nevermind that.

It really is silly.

I'm not ruling out that captains can apply special abilities, but I am ruling out that all abilities be available to all ships.

Relax. It's going to be ok. None of this will ever happen anyways. This is just an exercise.

The idea here is to put things back where they rightfully belong. Then we can move ahead and make adjustments WITHOUT the burden of alphas and subnucs running loose.
If the devs are always worried (or worse, NOT worried) about what may happen to an ability if a tac captain can magically buff its damage, that casts a shadow on anything they may cook up, won't it?

So cruisers need to be strong, but not by putting tacs in them and giving them alpha. They need to be strong based on engineering. Just like the boff stations suggest. So if we made a balance pass at cruiesers NOW, we would have to adjust for alpha. Doing that we can see that cruisers likely are fine. Because of alpha. Well that's not cool is it? Take alpha out and cruisers aren't so good. Blame engineers. Well that isn't quite right is it? We could buff the ships themselves or the boff engineer abilities if we KNEW that alpha wouldn't be around to make those engineer balanced changes into overpowerd game stompers!

And yes, for the time being, class distinctions between classes would vanish. But again adding a captains chair and allowing for a small pool of abilities to choose from for all ships and/or certain ships would put choices BACK to the player.

But you would need to first take the abilties OFF the captain. Think of it as adding mission modules to a ship or something like that. Captains choice.

If we really want customizable ships in the future, we need to start thinking of a framework that allows for that without making balance next to impossible. Because if everyone wants ALPHA or everything is balanced for ALPHA well where, exactly, is the variety?

So DDIS I hope you could see this as a way of actually adding more customization to the game, and not limiting it.
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Last edited by thissler; 01-15-2013 at 09:24 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,953
# 43
01-15-2013, 10:00 AM
maybe, but a tac in a cruiser with APA and everything else isn't the best cruiser setup that yields the highest output. the eng, though seemingly limited in usefulness, can output much higher heals then a tac in a cruiser can output damage. throw a sci in a cruiser, with the jump console maybe, and you can have a cruiser create a kill even more effectively then a tac in a cruiser.

with the current captain skills, it changes the nature and role of the ship completely. a tac cruiser is the polar opposite of an eng cruiser, they arent both built to do the same thing. in their own way, they balance themselves out already really.

i do like the idea of a captain filling in for a ship that lacks similar specialization. sure, doubling down captain and ship type works best to do 1 thing, but id rather see decentralization in station powers and captain powers then a doubling down. that creates to strong a damage dealer or to strong a healer. thats were there is balance concerns.

maxing and matching captain abilities in a grab bag of sorts sounds extreamly problematic. everyone's gonna have SNB and APA, and what not. not only would it be cookie cutter, but SNB use would be off the scale, and frankly ruin pvp hardest of all. i shudder to think of what it would be like with everyone having SNB. but, if SNB is only limited to sci ships, that limits things greatly, theres no getting around it.

i cant quite tell what your advocating, captain power grab bag modal, or only certain captain powers can be used on certain ships
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 44
01-15-2013, 10:09 AM
Removing current captain skills might not make a Captains class completely completely worthless. They could implement career trait pools, similar to racial traits, that have career specific impacts on the skill tree. A science aptitude trait might reduce the cost to upgrade science based abilities. A warp core specialization could buff power capacity and eps flow, or that too closely mirrors the skill tree then maybe there would be a chance to buff those systems on specific actions or situations.

I'm not entirely convinced that this is the way to go but it if you take a step back and really look there are some interesting things here. The prospect of making a Cruisers damage dealing ability more balanced (ie boosting it without over powered interactions from APA or requiring one to roll a Tac Captain) is an interesting one. I think I kind of get the rational that passive boosts from captain traits might help maintain variety (very important) by making pure builds stronger, hybrid builds more diverse, and all the things things in between effective in different ways.

The hardest part is thinking about these things against what we currently know and have become accustomed to. Even now as I think I get what he's suggesting, I keep confusing myself as I try to brainstorm expansions on these ideas.
__________________________________________
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May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 45
01-15-2013, 10:15 AM
What "captain" type would one class a BoP as, in this hypothetical scenario? What about the true carriers (woe betide the bastard who says they're Sci ships)?

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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 46
01-15-2013, 10:25 AM
Obvious answer is to reclassify EVERYTHING as a cruiser or a fighter

fighters having no captain abilities at all

HAHA (evil laugh)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 47
01-15-2013, 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
maybe, but a tac in a cruiser with APA and everything else isn't the best cruiser setup that yields the highest output.

Huh?

the eng, though seemingly limited in usefulness, can output much higher heals then a tac in a cruiser can output damage. throw a sci in a cruiser, with the jump console maybe, and you can have a cruiser create a kill even more effectively then a tac in a cruiser.

This is good but now your creating scenarios that aren't relevant. Where do jump consoles come in? Not here would be the correct answer. And how an engineer can OUTPUT much greater heals than a tac can OUTPUT damage in a cruiser well I have a basket of apples and oranges I'd like you to take a look at.

with the current captain skills, it changes the nature and role of the ship completely. a tac cruiser is the polar opposite of an eng cruiser, they arent both built to do the same thing. in their own way, they balance themselves out already really.

Yah no. That isn't acceptable. Sorry. And actually you contradicted yourself a few times there. So that isn't acceptable either. I still want to hold you though.

i do like the idea of a captain filling in for a ship that lacks similar specialization. sure, doubling down captain and ship type works best to do 1 thing, but id rather see decentralization in station powers and captain powers then a doubling down. that creates to strong a damage dealer or to strong a healer. thats were there is balance concerns.

I don't understand what you're saying here, could you clear this up? Im saying that powers balanced for cruisers become unbalanced when alpha gets involved. Same with sci. Im saying that abilities designed for limited arcs on less mobile ships, sub nucs, become a tad to strong on ships with high mobility and strong tac boffs. Tacs in tacs isn't inherently unbalanced, nor are engineers in cruisers or scis in scis.

maxing and matching captain abilities in a grab bag of sorts sounds extreamly problematic. everyone's gonna have SNB and APA, and what not. not only would it be cookie cutter, but SNB use would be off the scale, and frankly ruin pvp hardest of all. i shudder to think of what it would be like with everyone having SNB. but, if SNB is only limited to sci ships, that limits things greatly, theres no getting around it.

No. No grab bag model. Fear not. I did say some, certain, not all or any.

i cant quite tell what your advocating, captain power grab bag modal, or only certain captain powers can be used on certain ships
Read more carefully my friend I know you will get this.

Remove, reasses, reimplement. And that's all. Sub nuc shouldn't be in every ship, nor should alpha. But I've left the door open to say that PERHAPS the devs could allow for limited choices for the players on this. PERHAPS there could be an ATTACK SCI SHIP!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Weasel

Like that! It could have alpha and subnuc, but sacrifice any OTHER 'captain ability'

On other ships the Devs could rule that alpha isn't available at all, or subnuc isn't available at all!

See? Devs could have GREATER leeway in assiging powers or combinations of powers than currently exists in the game.

So. SOME abilities would be SET. SOME abilities would be left open by the DEVS for players to choose.

And we could have NEW abilities. If the the devs don't need to worry about them being used on every darn ship there is, it gets WAY easier to make interesting and useful abilities for a single ship class.

New stuff man. Cool!

And you know i love cruisers and skirts as much as you do, so don't panic!
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 48
01-15-2013, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
What "captain" type would one class a BoP as, in this hypothetical scenario? What about the true carriers (woe betide the bastard who says they're Sci ships)?
Shimmerless, you win. If someone else brought this up first, sorry I missed it. Was wondering when I would have to get to this.

BOP's would have to be assigned pools of traits. Pick a pool. Like picking a mission pod. You could have one kit. Imagine it as being simialr to Ground Kits. Maybe if we thought of ALL of it being similar to ground kits?

Escorts would have a range of "kits" as would cruisers etc etc etc

And so would BOP's.

Again, we could bake in Some, all, or none of the abilites. Care would have to be taken to avoid matchups, ones that are clearly to strong. It is easily workable inside this system.

And true carriers would get to pick cruiser or sci. Keep in mind sub system targeting as an inherent will be leaving us.

Ok. why? because of arc. Back in the dark ages a ships movement was key in factoring most everything else about the ship. If you understand DHC's and Sub Nuc, you understand this. Carriers should get any package they want out of the cruiser or sci pool. They are crazy huge ships with massive resources. I wouldn't object to these ships getting some unique abilites, once we can be sure they would STAY unique, and not end up on escorts.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,623
# 49
01-15-2013, 10:57 AM
The Captain abilities are kind of "off" in regard to how things work with the various ships.

Just going with the RA ships (3 of them for this example)...

Assault Cruiser:
Cmdr Eng
Lt Sci
Lt Tac

So the following would not be available on this ship:
HE3, JS3, MES3, PH3, ST3, Tach3, TB3, TSS3, CPB2/3, ES2/3, FBP2/3, PO2/3, TBR2/3, SS2/3, TR2/3, GW1-3, PS1-3, VM1-3, FAW3, BO3, TT3, THY3, TS3, T:W3, T:E3, T:S3, T:A3, APB2/3, APD2/3, CRF2/3, CSV2/3, DPA2, DPB2/3, APO1-3.

Yet a Sci can still use SF3, SNB3, SS3, PF3, SFleet3.
Yet a Tac can still use APA3, GDF3, TI3, FoMM3, TFleet3.

Patrol Escort:
Lt Eng
Lt Sci
Cmdr Tac

So the following would not be available on this ship:
EPtS3, EPtW3, EPtE3, EPtA3, ET3, AtB2, AtD2, AtS2/3, BP2/3, DEM2/3, Extend2/3, RSP2/3, AB1-3, EWP1-3, HE3, JS3, MES3, PH3, ST3, Tach3, TB3, TSS3, CPB2/3, ES2/3, FBP2/3, PO2/3, TBR2/3, SS2/3, TR2/3, GW1-3, PS1-3, VM1-3.

Yet an Eng can still use MW3, NI3, EPSPT3, RSF3, EFleet3.
Yet a Sci can still use SF3, SNB3, SS3, PF3, SFleet3.

Recon Science Vessel:
Lt Eng
Cmdr Sci
Lt Tac

So the following would not be available on this ship:
EPtS3, EPtW3, EPtE3, EPtA3, ET3, AtB2, AtD2, AtS2/3, BP2/3, DEM2/3, Extend2/3, RSP2/3, AB1-3, EWP1-3, FAW3, BO3, TT3, THY3, TS3, T:W3, T:E3, T:S3, T:A3, APB2/3, APD2/3, CRF2/3, CSV2/3, DPA2, DPB2/3, APO1-3.

Yet an Eng can still use MW3, NI3, EPSPT3, RSF3, EFleet3.
Yet a Tac can still use APA3, GDF3, TI3, FoMM3, TFleet3.

Which begs the question(s), if a ship is not advanced enough/capable of running certain Eng, Sci, and Tac abilities...how is it still advanced enough/capable of running certain Captain abilities?

Meh, went for a cig and forgot to post the suggested resolution to this. Something along the lines of what's been mentioned to an extent.

Kits.

Eng (Eng), Eng (Sci), Eng (Tac)
Sci (Eng), Sic (Sci), Sci (Tac)
Tac (Eng), Tac (Sci), Tac (Tac)

The Kit would have to match the highest ranked BOFF station on the ship. For BoPs, the Kit would have to match the highest ranked BOFF that's equipped just like the others.

Some of the abilities might be the same regardless of Kit, while others will reflect the potentially hybrid nature of the Captain in a particular ship.


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Endless, Hazari Destroyer

Last edited by virusdancer; 01-15-2013 at 11:22 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,953
# 50
01-15-2013, 11:35 AM
a cruiser can be an apple or an orange. it depends on the captain in it. when its an apple, its keeping the team alive, dealing little or no damage, concentrating completely on the health of the ships that cant heal themselves as well. when a cruiser is an orange, its got DEM, overcaped weapons power, holds, plasma, its dealing the most pressure damage it possibly can, it may even have tech doffs giving its tac skill up time the same as an escort has. i guess a pear shaped cruiser would have a sci captain, doing the same healer and support gig, but then positioning to deliver a SNB so those escorts its sporting can tear the target apart. i believe the jump console has the same cooldown as SNB, and when you use it you instantly are pointed were you need to be to SNB at the perfect time. thats were the jump console comes in.


2 out of 3 of those are critically important. well, an eng should be important and the best healer, but it just barely is, but its not bringing nearly as much to the team as a sci in its place would. tac cruisers still get laughed off any real team, i don't see what the problem is that needs to be balanced around there. its not ideal no mater what, its a pug toy.

wheres the inconsistency? is it that i say all this, but main tac cruisers anyway? ya, thats kinda inconsistent, but i find i have the most fun flying them, actual effectiveness is sorta secondary to fun for me!


with diluting, im referring to station setups. ships with a COM and LTC of the same type are very focused on 1 thing, but the ships were never that focused in the show, they were built to do all sorts of things, the COM/LTC setup on most of the ships that have them dont fit the nature of the ships at all, except for something like the defiant. the galaxy is the worst offender, all that eng, wile in canon it was the most modular, multi mission ship ever. the fleet vorcha and the regent is a much better fit to the personality of the ship, but does that make them better ships? well, the fleet vorcha can rock pretty hard, but its still a fat clumsy cruiser, completely unideal for fulfilling a cruiser role, and not fast enough, and without enough high end tac skills to replace an escort. the regent, a ship that can basically only use beam arrays couldn't be less ideal. maybe if it could turn and use heavy weapons it would be good, but its so bad its basically only a pve toy.

but thats because ships like the star cruiser and odyssey exists, with their perfect support station setups. if such focused things did not exist, more diverse station setup would be the rule, not the exception, and it would be a huge reduction in min maxed heals and min maxed damage dealing. if nothing had more then a COM and LT of the same type, or if on say an assault cruiser, it had a COM tactical and a LTC, LT eng only, well it would be better at dealing damage and not nearly as good at support. but at the same time a patrol escort would have a COM eng and only a LTC, LT tac.

im just sort of rambling, but the point is that if unideal station setups were the rule, i think things would be more fun and less min maxed and yoyo. every ship would be a unique combination of control, damage and healing, and not be masivly good at any one of those things. but you seem to kinda want to make things more rigid. i may just be retarded and not getting it, but thats what i am understanding. our ideal image might be at opposite ends of the spectrum
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