Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 980
# 61
01-21-2013, 04:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Yep, most likely full of cadets on a training exercise, too.

I've always thought of that Connie as a ship that was kept functional for use as hands on starship operations training that got thrown at the cube in a last ditch act of desperation.
The admiral who speaks to Picard never mentions using any out of service ships, he in fact states that they are being recalled into the area. If they were really so desperate for fighting forces they would have brought those scout ships you see get blown up by mars.

There were only forty ships in the wolf 359 fleet. That's a paltry count compared to what star fleet is really capable of.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
# 62
01-21-2013, 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
I liked how you used the time stamp of a sto perspective, a universe where the Connie is still all over the place.
At T2...where it's undergone 164 years of refits and retrofits to still be around.

C'mon, if somebody wanted to be tricky and get an endgame Connie in the game - it wouldn't be as a "T5" ship. It wouldn't be there with the other RA/VA ships.

No, the enterprising advocate would suggest it as a Fleet T5. After all, Fleet vessels are built by the individual fleets at their starbases. They're not something being built by Starfleet or the Federation. Because neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building RA/VA versions of the ship...

...kind of like, you know - the other Fleet ships that neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building at the RA/VA level. Yet, individual fleets are building them at their starbases.

Cryptic created that problem...players wanting an endgame Connie should exploit it.

They shouldn't expect that either Starfleet or the Federation would be building them at a RA/VA level...nor have any they've refit to that level...what individual fleets build though, well - that's a different story, right?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 63
01-21-2013, 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
The admiral who speaks to Picard never mentions using any out of service ships, he in fact states that they are being recalled into the area. If they were really so desperate for fighting forces they would have brought those scout ships you see get blown up by mars.

There were only forty ships in the wolf 359 fleet. That's a paltry count compared to what star fleet is really capable of.
Then show me another instance where we ever see a confirmed Connie outside of time travel. Where in the vast fleets during the Dominion War do we ever see one?

Even Picard later confirms that there's a Constitution class as a museum ship in S6E4 Relics of TNG. Why would there be a museum ship of a class still in active service? Especially after all the trouble they were having rebuilding the fleet after Wolf 359. If the class was still viable, why was it not in active service?
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,591
# 64
01-21-2013, 04:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
There were only forty ships in the wolf 359 fleet. That's a paltry count compared to what star fleet is really capable of.
The fleet size arguments for the Connie are even worse than they are for the Ambassador. But again, as has been pointed out consistently - Cryptic's decisions to include or exclude certain ships has nothing to do with logic. They know there would be money in it - do you not think that if they could do it that they would not do it? They've made other T2 vessels available at T5 via the Fleet system... if they could Fleet Connie, they would. Much like they were finally able to get the Ambassador in the game at endgame (which makes no sense either)...

...it's about fighting the right fight, etc, etc, etc.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 980
# 65
01-21-2013, 04:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Then show me another instance where we ever see a confirmed Connie outside of time travel. Where in the vast fleets during the Dominion War do we ever see one?

Even Picard later confirms that there's a Constitution class as a museum ship in S6E4 Relics of TNG. Why would there be a museum ship of a class still in active service? Especially after all the trouble they were having rebuilding the fleet after Wolf 359. If the class was still viable, why was it not in active service?
Just because there is a tos era Connie in a museum does not mean the refits were discontinued. Art museums often have modern works inside of them, history museums have areas dedicated to rare animals.

More importantly, just seeing a ship once does not automatically make it a fluke. We only see the Saratoga, centaur, and many other ships once, but no one ever argues they have been recalled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
At T2...where it's undergone 164 years of refits and retrofits to still be around.

C'mon, if somebody wanted to be tricky and get an endgame Connie in the game - it wouldn't be as a "T5" ship. It wouldn't be there with the other RA/VA ships.

No, the enterprising advocate would suggest it as a Fleet T5. After all, Fleet vessels are built by the individual fleets at their starbases. They're not something being built by Starfleet or the Federation. Because neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building RA/VA versions of the ship...

...kind of like, you know - the other Fleet ships that neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building at the RA/VA level. Yet, individual fleets are building them at their starbases.

Cryptic created that problem...players wanting an endgame Connie should exploit it.

They shouldn't expect that either Starfleet or the Federation would be building them at a RA/VA level...nor have any they've refit to that level...what individual fleets build though, well - that's a different story, right?
I seem to have misread the intentions of your post, I thought you were another hater trolling and I apologize. I completely agree with your sentiments, my signature is a permanent plea for fleet grade refit goodness.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 66
01-21-2013, 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
The fleet size arguments for the Connie are even worse than they are for the Ambassador. But again, as has been pointed out consistently - Cryptic's decisions to include or exclude certain ships has nothing to do with logic. They know there would be money in it - do you not think that if they could do it that they would not do it? They've made other T2 vessels available at T5 via the Fleet system... if they could Fleet Connie, they would. Much like they were finally able to get the Ambassador in the game at endgame (which makes no sense either)...

...it's about fighting the right fight, etc, etc, etc.
There's something weird about the situation with the Connie.

Its not that Cryptic doesn't want to, we know they'll do anything for money at this point. For some reason CBS is putting the kibosh on an end game Connie. According to Gecko in one of his interviews, it was an uphill battle to include it in game at all, at any level. Yet we still have the D'kir at T5 from the jump, makes no sense. There are still a few that swears its all Cryptic's fault somehow, or the devs just hate the Connie, but that just doesn't wash. Because you know...money.

I can make a few guesses as to why, but what the truth is they've never said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
More importantly, just seeing a ship once does not automatically make it a fluke. We only see the Saratoga, centaur, and many other ships once, but no one ever argues they have been recalled.
We see the Centaur class three times actually.
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Last edited by hravik; 01-21-2013 at 04:27 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 980
# 67
01-21-2013, 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
We see the Centaur class three times actually.
My mistake, the argument still stands.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 68
01-21-2013, 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
My mistake, the argument still stands.
Not really, the Saratoga was just a modification of an already existing frame. Just like the Lantree and Bozeman was a variant on the same basic space frame.

But that aside, my hang up with the Connie is that its a cruiser. A tiny cruiser. By volume, you could fit a Connie refit inside a single Galaxy class nacelle with room to spare. Even an Intrepid class is very nearly three times the volume, even if its roughly the same length. (appearances can be very deceiving)

If a Constitution can function just as well as a cruiser as any of the more modern and larger cruisers, that negates any and all reason for there to have ever been an Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign, Odyssey, etc etc. I can't possibly suspend my Trek disbelief enough to accept that a ship a fraction the size can take and give as much of a pounding as ships upwards of 27 times its volume. More for the Odyssey.

You couldn't possibly cram enough structure, shielding, power generation, hull thickness and weaponry in there to make up that massive amount of difference. Any miniaturization you apply to that Connie could be applied to the larger ships in spades.
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Last edited by hravik; 01-21-2013 at 05:07 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,372
# 69
01-21-2013, 05:21 AM
I am quite surprised that noone has thought of the obvious way to get a Tier 5 connie in the game. Remember the episode In the Mirror Darkly and how the NX Enterprise encountered the futuristic defiant. The Tholians We already have not only future time ships but MU Ships so who's to say that the Tholians haven't dabbled in time travel and actually brought retro ships to the future. Also we are at war so that means they could be using older ships to replace holes in the defense of the federation the Klingons themselves could have something similar with older birds of preys and other ships.

Now don't get us wrong I like TOS but I'm not really fussed on if they do include a connie or any ship in the game as am game does not have to be canon. But I can understand why people want it and can imagine that it will make PWE a lot of money if they can pressurise CBS in giving them the rights to have a t5 version in game.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 980
# 70
01-21-2013, 05:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Not really, the Saratoga was just a modification of an already existing frame. Just like the Lantree and Bozeman was a variant on the same basic space frame.

But that aside, my hang up with the Connie is that its a cruiser. A tiny cruiser. By volume, you could fit a Connie refit inside a single Galaxy class nacelle with room to spare. Even an Intrepid class is very nearly three times the volume, even if its roughly the same length. (appearances can be very deceiving)

If a Constitution can function just as well as a cruiser as any of the more modern and larger cruisers, that negates any and all reason for there to have ever been an Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign, Odyssey, etc etc. I can't possibly suspend my Trek disbelief enough to accept that a ship a fraction the size can take and give as much of a pounding as ships upwards of 27 times its volume. More for the Odyssey.

You couldn't possibly cram enough structure, shielding, power generation, hull thickness and weaponry in there to make up that massive amount of difference. Any miniaturization you apply to that Connie could be applied to the larger ships in spades.
No, the argument still stands, only seeing a ship once is no ground for dismissal. You are adding other points to the issue and I will be happy to address them. The Saratoga is a modification of the Miranda class, which is a modification of constitution parts.

As for the size and tier issue, that's pretty good, but sto tech has already rendered it moot. The defiant and bug are the smallest escorts in the game, yet they have the most powerful weapons in the game. Not only that, but the nova class fleet variant has 1+ shields and is smaller than a Connie. So for shields and weapons the Connie could easily be engineered to compete, but it's hull should be the lowest of all fed cruisers. The design of its boffs and consoles would have to be interesting, but saying the tech is impossible is just unfair.

Personally I think they should give it a special console or ability that allows it to have a single 180 degree DBB and cite how the phasers key directly into the warp core ala tmp or something. This would be cool because the dbb art design is based off of the Connie refit.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.

Last edited by cidstorm; 01-21-2013 at 05:41 AM.
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