Captain
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# 81
01-21-2013, 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robeasom View Post
I am quite surprised that noone has thought of the obvious way to get a Tier 5 connie in the game. Remember the episode In the Mirror Darkly and how the NX Enterprise encountered the futuristic defiant. The Tholians We already have not only future time ships but MU Ships so who's to say that the Tholians haven't dabbled in time travel and actually brought retro ships to the future. Also we are at war so that means they could be using older ships to replace holes in the defense of the federation the Klingons themselves could have something similar with older birds of preys and other ships.
That doesn't resolve the T5 issue.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
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# 82
01-21-2013, 09:06 AM
Hravik*
Your new querries aren't too difficult either. Il start by saying that I never claimed the Connie was as effective as the excelsior class.

The constitution refit flag ship was replaced by the excelsior class because of a net increase in functional demands required by star fleet. Their territory was exploding, enemy territory was increasing, conflict with old enemies was increasing while new enemies were being discovered, and scientific phenomena had already been established as far beyond the current technological capability of understanding.
To deal with this on all fronts efficiently star fleet needed bigger and better ships.

The flag ship must be a role model in every way for the fleet, it is the physical manifestation of all the organizations goals and capabilities that can be singularly combined. Exploration, crisis management, and transportation.

When the excelsior class was rolled out and mainlined, it's superiority in these fields demanded it take the throne of flag ship. And as every other documented case of undone dominance in star fleet, the old flag ship class becomes a work horse, a silent holder of the flame that is the old status quo, a dark knight. Production of these ships are maintained due to the demands of a growing structure combined with the limitations of new material and facilities. Secrecy and subterfuge also put a damper on these new innovations. The increasing demands in all fields tax lesser equipped ships like the Miranda class more than they do the constitution class, so an industrial entity that can produce both in great numbers chooses the superior ship for longer production runs. Modifications can be made to lesson crew requirements if the federations bulging mass cannot accommodate them.

As for the twelve ships thing, it's standard star fleet protocol to mass produce ships far beyond such numbers.

I'm pumped we essentially agree there should be a tier 5 Connie, making interesting adjustments to cruiser standards will be a trend every type of ship could benefit from, lord knows the armitage is widely adored, myself included.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The Constellation is made up primarily of Connie refit parts and it is tier 5, there is no logical reason whatsoever for the no tier 5/6 connie rule.

Last edited by cidstorm; 01-21-2013 at 09:08 AM.
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# 83
01-21-2013, 09:40 AM
Let me start off here by saying I never said I thought there should be a T5 Connie, I still think there's just no need for it. I'd just rather not see it shoehorned into something that makes no sense if it does happen, and I'm not even convinced it will.

Secondly, you're making a LOT of assumptions. On the one hand, we have a distinct lack of Connies showing up on screen. On the other hand we have a direct quote from Kirk himself saying there are only 12 in the fleet, with absolutely no supporting evidence that more were built, but strong evidence of the ones we know about for sure seeing at least a 50% loss rate. Again I point out that Picard mentions there is one in the fleet museum while talking to a depressed Scotty. If there were any still in service, surely he would have mentioned it to cheer Scotty up?

Given what we see in DS9, we know there are scores of Mirandas, lots of Excelsiors, and even variants of both ships. Surely if production of the Constitution continued full steam ahead as you suggest we'd see more than just one as wreckage years before. They go on about how many ships are lost, shipyards destroyed, yet hide nor hair of a Connie. As a patrol craft, the Miranda sports basically the same phaser and torpedo complement that the Connie does, and any full on cruiser duties are better filled by the Excelsior.

I would suspect that they may have been kept on for a time, maybe even decades, but through loss and retirement were phased out. Is that an assumption? Yes, but an assumption that's supported by on screen evidence.
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Last edited by hravik; 01-21-2013 at 09:47 AM.
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# 84
01-21-2013, 10:08 AM
Well as long as you're not against a tier 5 Connie that's all I can really ask for.

Other than that your pretty much just repeating the same stuff. Despite the fact that we see many ships in ds9, it's still a small portion of the overall fleet composition. You are pointing out a lack of evidence on the subject, not supporting your claims. The one ship at wolf 359 says far more by comparison.

The star fleet mass produces everything should be pretty obvious, if you really want to stick to canon I could be a real stickler and claim the connie was the only class of ship in tos and they would need more than twelve. The word fleet could refer to a task force as well, there's still lots of wiggle room there.

When you take into account licensing costs, fan outcry, model availability/status, and cgi budget, it should be pretty apparent why we see the ships we see so often. One final bit on ds9, in such an extreme war, you would absolutely have to have as many of your best ships on the front line as possible, the lowest performing exploratory vessel would probably get the most continued service in that range of cruiser duties.

And since you brought up the museum Picard bit again, Picard is not obligated to know what all the star fleet is composed of. Still he captained the star gazer, if anything he placed the bridge design with the last completely removed era of tech or knew exactly what scotty wanted. The refit was an almost completely different beast.

Oh and at no time during pre sovereign pre defiant eras would the Miranda best the Connie in anything other than rear facing fire power. The Miranda warp core was tiny as hell, and we know that thanks to wrath of khan, add in a giant deflector and the superior cruiser frame and you have a flat out better ship, all soft canon supports this notion.

When the need is up for bigger and better you phase out smaller and weaker first, basic rules of supply and demand, supported by the upwards trend of everything we see and hear about the federation.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The Constellation is made up primarily of Connie refit parts and it is tier 5, there is no logical reason whatsoever for the no tier 5/6 connie rule.

Last edited by cidstorm; 01-21-2013 at 10:18 AM.
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Posts: 805
# 85
01-21-2013, 12:19 PM
Again, wild guesses and supposition. Everything I've said in this debate so far I can go to an episode, or a movie, and cite a source.

At no point did I claim that the Connie was the only ship in TOS. Kirk said '12 like her in the fleet' This indirectly implies there are plenty of ships, but directly says there are only 12 Constitutions. Some guesses there, yes, but far less than you have to make to support your claims.

Starfleet does not 'mass produce everything.' We can see they mass produced some things, but on screen evidence says that the Connie was not among those things. That's just wishful thinking on your part. The burden of proof is on you to show where they did. I can point to an exact number from a reliable source (Kirk), where's yours?

Picard may not know the exact details of everything that goes on in Starfleet, but I'm pretty sure he knew exactly who Scotty was, and what his service record was. Anything less would be sloppy and out of character for Picard. He certainly knew exactly who Kirk was immediately in Generations.

I won't dispute that the warp core was smaller, but I do have to ask...how do we know that from TWoK? At what point do they discuss warp core sizes? Funny that I don't remember that particular line. I also at no point said that the Miranda was a superior overall ship, just that it basically has the same fire power. All variants of the Miranda have at minimum 14 phaser emitters, 12 being in 6 dual banks on the main hull, and two single emitters aft. The Reliant-type has two more in the rollbar making the total 16, plus four photon launchers, 2 aft 2 forward. The Constitution refit had 6 dual emitter banks on the saucer, 2 single emitter aft banks are above the shuttlebay and four midship single emitter banks are located on the ventral surface of the engineering hull, two forward torpedoes and none aft. Total 16/4 to 18/2. Like I said, basically the same firepower.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 984
# 86
01-21-2013, 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Again, wild guesses and supposition. Everything I've said in this debate so far I can go to an episode, or a movie, and cite a source.
Fact: there is a wrecked Connie in wolf 359 scenes.
Fact: I checked the relics scene on YouTube, Picard immediately pegs the program for a constitution class, no refit additures, his confidence belies an intimate knowledge, but this is all unimportant because:
Fact: We know Connie refits could be decomissioned without ending the whole run, case in point trying to decom the original enterprise while the Yorktown was still in service as seen in star trek 4.
Fact: Museums have contempory and recent displays all the time.
Fact: saying that we never see tons of Connie's makes them a dead ship line is a logical fallacy, you are hurting your cause.
Fact: federation space was getting bigger, enemies were becoming more powerful, scientific facilities were incapable of understanding many phenomena. These are all things the constitution class was better at handling compared to the Miranda, cruiser frames are cruiser frames throughout history because they are the best, and are given flagship roles as a result. You see the reliants warp core in twok, and in tmp you learn that phasers are keyed into the warp core, giving the enterprise much more powerful weapons, the Miranda is only better at fighting a retreating photon battle.

Fact summary/comparison:
Your arguments are torn apart by facts, not supported by them. The two actual facts you present of Picards quote and tos ship numbers never make a direct statement towards or against continued production, they just exist in some vague relation to the idea. The Connie at wolf 359 is undeniable, direct information regarding the issue, you just drone it out while going lalalalalala 'probabilities'.

Logical conjecture: making excelsiors and gradually increasing the size of star fleets ships shows that the federation needed more bigger ships, why make more Miranda's instead of constitutions then, why decommission more Miranda's than Connie's?

Logical conjecture: every starship we know to not fill a niche role is mass produced, we see tons of galaxies, excelsiors, Miranda's, nebulas, and FC era ships, and several ambassadors. If the Klingons can field three constitution equivalent ktinga class vessels to investigate a scientific phenomena in tmp, the federation would definitely need many of their own Connie's as a potential answer to such a threat.

Conjecture summary/comparison: I am looking at the over all trends of star fleet ship composition while you are just looking at snippets of ships shown on a budget.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The Constellation is made up primarily of Connie refit parts and it is tier 5, there is no logical reason whatsoever for the no tier 5/6 connie rule.
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# 87
01-22-2013, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Fact: there is a wrecked Connie in wolf 359 scenes.
Which can easily be explained any number of other different ways. Last surviving unit, training ship, museum ship quickly manned and thrown into action. Once again, a single ship does not indicate some vast fleet of Connies that we just never see. We also see Mirandas there too, and Nebulas, and an Ambassador, all of which we see again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Fact: We know Connie refits could be decomissioned without ending the whole run, case in point trying to decom the original enterprise while the Yorktown was still in service as seen in star trek 4.
So what? The original Enterprise was old at this point, at minimum 40 years old, and heavily damaged on top of that. Remember, Scott himself pretty much said the power systems were shot and 'bypassed like a Christmas tree' Old and heavily damaged? Well hey, look at that, let's just rename this freshly refit ship to make Kirk happy.

They do this kind of thing in the US and other Navies all the time. Just because they keep some in service while retiring others of the same class does not automatically prove they are still building new ones. Just look at the Ticonderoga class missile cruisers. 27 were built, 22 still active, 5 retired, but they sure as heck aren't building more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Fact: Museums have contempory and recent displays all the time.
So now you're claiming TOS era Constitutions were still in service and not refits? That isn't what you claimed before, now is it? Contemporary would have to mean that that exact configuration was still in use. Thought that refit thing was a whole different animal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Fact: saying that we never see tons of Connie's makes them a dead ship line is a logical fallacy, you are hurting your cause.
We never do see them AND we know a fixed number of how many existed to start with, with no actual evidence of more being built, plus a knowledge of how many of those were lost. Minimum 7 lost, almost forgot about the Defiant (NCC-1764) being lost to the Tholians/Mirror Universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Fact: federation space was getting bigger, enemies were becoming more powerful, scientific facilities were incapable of understanding many phenomena. These are all things the constitution class was better at handling compared to the Miranda
How do you know that for sure? As I recall, the first time we see a Miranda, its doing what? Oh that's right, scientific surveys for the Genesis project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
You see the reliants warp core in twok, and in tmp you learn that phasers are keyed into the warp core, giving the enterprise much more powerful weapons, the Miranda is only better at fighting a retreating photon battle.
You hurt your own argument here. The only shot we see of the Reliant's warp core is a reuse of the same exact set used to depict the Enterprise's warp core. So unless you want to claim they use the same warp core...


Fact summary/comparison:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Your arguments are torn apart by facts, not supported by them.
Wishful thinking doesn't make me wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
The two actual facts you present of Picards quote and tos ship numbers never make a direct statement towards or against continued production, they just exist in some vague relation to the idea.
But combine that with the number of times we see them ever again outside of Wolf 359, which is precisely zero...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
The Connie at wolf 359 is undeniable, direct information regarding the issue, you just drone it out while going lalalalalala 'probabilities'.
And you drone it out with 'well I think this should have happened, I can't prove it in any way, but hey I said so' So far you've given very little or no cite-able 'direct information' to support your claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Logical conjecture: making excelsiors and gradually increasing the size of star fleets ships shows that the federation needed more bigger ships, why make more Miranda's instead of constitutions then, why decommission more Miranda's than Connie's?
Conjecture, given nearly equal firepower, the less complex design, less resources to build, the obvious flexibility of the frame given how many variants of it we see. We also see several variants of the Nebula, maybe there's something about being able to easily change out that mission pod up top that makes this layout more versatile than the standard cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Logical conjecture: every starship we know to not fill a niche role is mass produced, we see tons of galaxies
Original production run of the Galaxy was 6, only 10 can be confirmed in all of the Dominion war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
excelsiors
True, but with the Connie refit being from virtually the same era, where are they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Miranda's
True, but with the Connie refit being from virtually the same era, where are they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
nebulas
The Nebula is the Galaxy's Miranda, we can name about 16 here, with a few unnamed in all of Trek (counting TNG, DS9, VOY)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
and FC era ships,
So they made brand spanking new ships, and even had the Millennium Falcon in First Contact, but no Constitution to be had, not even as wreckage or background shots this time. Not to mention the Frankenstein fleet in the Dominion war, where they had to go out of their way to make some god awful ugly physical models to fill out the shots, but not even once with the already built models of a Connie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
and several ambassadors.
We even see the ever so rare Ambassador more than Constitutions in the TNG+ eras
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
If the Klingons can field three constitution equivalent ktinga class vessels to investigate a scientific phenomena in tmp, the federation would definitely need many of their own Connie's as a potential answer to such a threat.
More unsupported speculations. This would only work if the Constitution was the only class of starship during that era, and we know that not to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Conjecture summary/comparison: I am looking at the over all trends of star fleet ship composition while you are just looking at snippets of ships shown on a budget.
I'm looking at empirical evidence, you're looking to support your cause no matter how much stuff you have to make up. After all, as I mentioned before, they went out of their way to make some ugly, ugly kitbashes. If budget was the only concern they would have trotted out models already built...and they did, just not the Constitution.

And you know what, you almost got your wish of actually being able to point to a Constitution in TNG. In S01E09 The Battle, the original script called for the Stargazer to be a Connie, and even had Geordi's line already recorded calling it a Constitution. But you know what? They decided it was a bad idea, and went out of their way to create a new filming model and overdub the line with Constellation. So you can keep pointing to budget issues all day long, and I can point to instances where they avoided using a Connie intentionally.
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Last edited by hravik; 01-22-2013 at 06:47 AM. Reason: spelling
Captain
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# 88
01-22-2013, 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
So what? The original Enterprise was old at this point, at minimum 40 years old, and heavily damaged on top of that. Remember, Scott himself pretty much said the power systems were shot and 'bypassed like a Christmas tree' Old and heavily damaged? Well hey, look at that, let's just rename this freshly refit ship to make Kirk happy.
You just tried to rebuke a point by adding reasons to why it could happen. Unless you can provide evidence that says ships don't get recalled together it remains fact. It's also nice of you to point out that they were still actively refitting Connie's at the time, more evidence that the ship had staying power in the fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
So now you're claiming TOS era Constitutions were still in service and not refits? That isn't what you claimed before, now is it? Thought that refit thing was a whole different animal?
Now you are putting words in my mouth, but it's certainly a possibility if the yorktown had just then been refit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
We never do see them AND we know a fixed number of how many existed to start with, plus a knowledge of how many of those were lost. Minimum 7 lost, almost forgot about the Defiant (NCC-1764) being lost to the Tholians/Mirror Universe.
If you can provide any real evidence other than a fallacy of silence about how production continued after this number was given il admit I was wrong about the subject. Until then the number means absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
How do you know that for sure? As I recall, the first time we see a Miranda, its doing what? Oh that's right, scientific surveys for the Genesis project.
Wow, that really convinced me the Miranda is a superior science vessel. That was a lie, the constitution class was a dedicated explorer, and it sported a large forward facing deflector, givining it a vast array of scientific abilities the Miranda lacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
You hurt your own argument here. The only shot we see of the Reliant's warp core is a reuse of the same exact set used to depict the Enterprise's warp core. So unless you want to claim they use the same warp core...
Sure why not, giving them the same style of warp core only helps my point. The connies warp core goes through the neck to the saucer, there's no way a smaller version of the same warp core could outperform the Connie's. That's a cool bit of trivia though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
And you know what, you almost got your wish of actually being able to point to a Constitution in TNG. In S01E09 The Battle, the original script called for the Stargazer to be a Connie, and even had Geordi's line already recorded calling it a Constitution. But you know what? They decided it was a bad idea, and went out of their way to create a new filming model and overdub the line with Constellation. So you can keep pointing to budget issues all day long, and I can point to instances where they avoided using a Connie intentionally.
And I can point out that they wanted to use a Connie just like you did because it was obviously still in service, can you cite the exact reasons why they didn't use it? A million internet dollars says the issue wasn't the ships comissionary status, if it was why would they make a ship that was so similar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
(the wolf 359 Connie)
Which can easily be explained any number of other different ways. Last surviving unit, training ship, museum ship quickly manned and thrown into action. Once again, a single ship does not indicate some vast fleet of Connies that we just never see. We also see Mirandas there too, and Nebulas, and an Ambassador, all of which we see again.
Last surviving unit and training ship would mean she was still in service. Being in a museum does not exclusively mean the ship was discontinued either, but I will entertain the notion for hilarities sake.

Lets say hollywood decided to make a movie about the academy museum theory because that's totally the type of thing Hollywood would love.

Cadets, this is an emergency announcement, everyone get to the shuttle bays for deployment in battle on a mothballed ship, don't worry, we have thirty nine other standard ships on their way to almost certainly handle this meager threat only worth forty ships. This will be considered a project for your collective portfolios due in December, exam the experience and resolve yourself with intent to improve in lacking proficiencies. But that's all later, make haste!
On board the shuttles, the students realize they are being stationed on a Connie, some nerd says they should take the excelsior class five lanes over, everyone makes fun of him and says it will build character.
Finally on the bridge, acting ensign potato is made acting commander acting ensign, and told to obtain whatever he needs for launch from utopia yards. Before he can do anything comm signals flood everyone's newly received comm badges. Nothing works except for the replicators, doors, toilets, and educational programs.
It turns out every critical system is missing components that were given to other ships or removed to prevent stealing secrets, by both enemies and would be terrorists. Star fleet shuttles are already on the way though, and everyone quickly gets to work on installations.

"Acting commander acting ensign potato, all the new components are installed and heated up, ready to warp on command." But before any action can be made, star fleet gets on the line, everyone there is getting honorary red squad status, the crew claps. The good spirits are quickly dampened when they realize they need to update the software because no one really gets those old console controls. Acting commander acting ensign potato wipes a bead of sweat of his brow, "it's a good thing we aren't using old hardware and old software too, mixing them will fix everything".

An hour later final double checks are completed and the uss bright futures goes to warp 8, the engineer can't handle power calculations for warp 9. On the way there key acting ensigns go over the Borg intel. The conn officer starts to shake uncontrollably, he says they don't stand a chance and tries to turn the ship around. "Here, take these barely legal drugs I just replicated, they will make you feel better" says potato. Acting ensign acting conn officer celery agrees and is soon lost in supplementary flight maneuver instructions.

By the time they get there the Borg are long gone, and they accidentally trigger the self destruct sequence while learning how it functions. It's true they use the st 3 sfs model for it and everything.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, Xindi carrier, Xindi escort, and the T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The Constellation is made up primarily of Connie refit parts and it is tier 5, there is no logical reason whatsoever for the no tier 5/6 connie rule.
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# 89
01-22-2013, 07:41 AM
I'll point out that, once more you have wild, unsupported claims. Just give me one example, one single solitary shred of support that Constitutions were still in service. Anything? Something? No? Your arguments are built on a house of cards that can easily be dismissed point for point unless you have some evidence to back it up.

The only time we see one is as wreckage, in a place that can easily be explained as a desperate move.

Everything points to Constitutions just not being in service. We don't see them, don't hear about them, and have no evidence whatsoever that they were produced in the large numbers you suggest.
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# 90
01-22-2013, 08:13 AM
wow has this thread gone down hill.

1st. i have the TOS era STAR FLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL and it showes all the names of constitution's built and there was far more than the original 12.
2nd. this thread was supposed to be about a t5 connie, not how implausible it was for story, after all the excelsior its a 120+ yr old design that got shot to hell more than once in the dominion war(Lakota was one exception that revived special upgrades it would have been too costly to upgrade all thats why new designs are made there are real world exampls of this) if it can be kept at t3,t5 retro AND a fleet version(only to keep the fans happy) we can get a t5 connie or a holo
3. ITS A GAME beliveabilaty will always be sacrificed for gameplay thats why 50%+ captains are vice admiral and beam into borg infested areas and people want to cry cannon?
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