Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,451
# 51
01-19-2013, 12:50 AM
A few things...

1) defense vs acc doesn't end up being that simple. +30 -40 doesn't mean 10% as far as def vs acc goes.

2) Yes escorts deserve to have higher defense then other ships... and as others math has shown you the same math applies to cruisers... which assuming similer power settings in engines by your math would be almost identical miss chances. In in truth the miss chance of a escort vs a cruiser (ASSUMING all the same buffs are up) are almost identical... the escort has less inertia and can recover from disables and such in terms of defense stat a bit quicker and this can lead to the preception that they have so much more defense rating... Truth is 90 defense vs 60 defense doesn't make all that much difference in terms of to hit rate. However the escort is likely to be able to keep there defense numbers up for longer durration... not to mention that many people pilot there cruisers in a different way. Slowing to turn ect in a cruiser will kill your defense go figure. Escorts do pivot turn yes... but they don't pay for it as badly due to the much better inertia that allows them to be at top impulse again much quicker.

Bottom line if you parse the data of an escort WITHOUT Omega or or other buffs up... vs a cruiser also with out any buffs... both just running at full speed and taking fire... the hit rate will be with in a few %. If you do the same test with them both sitting still... both will take almost every hit but the escort will still evade a small number due to escorts defense bonus.

Yes this is needed in the game for balance. We can go on about escorts doing to much dmg to justify there defense rate... HOWEVER its a defense rating... its fluid and it can be countered hard... unlike Cruisers and Sci Ships that just get passive boosts to there HP pools. Cruisers have 10-40% more hull depending on which ships your comapring and sci ships have the same in terms of shields.

Is dmg to high ? Ya probaly is... however so is healing and health pools in general.

Turning escorts into glass cannons again would solve nothing in this game... it would return us to cruisers online.. and don't think cruisers can't still put out 90% of the dps of an escort cause they can... so nothing will change... the dps players will leave there escort glass cannons and all jump in there cruiser Aluminium oxynitride cannons.... again. lmao
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 41
# 52
01-19-2013, 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Accurate gives +10%.
Each Acc modifier gives +10%.
9 in Targeting gives you +15%.

Having Accurate, ACCx3, and 9 in Targeting puts you at +55%.

Elusive gives your target +10% Defense.
9 in Maneuvers gives your target +15% in Defense.

That will drop you down to 30%.

So you could still be looking at a 10-35%+ chance to miss against Escorts.

Depending on how things work against that 90% cap - you could definitely be looking at a higher chance to miss during the use of abilities. The overflow Defense could still count against your bonus Accuracy.

Which gets back to the discussion on the various tanks. Given the increased damage Escorts do and thus the reduced tank they should have, is a 10-35% chance to miss them where they should be in comparison to other ships?

But also as mentioned, it's not that simple. Tractor and Subnuke them. They lose that avoidance tank. Meanwhile, the Cruiser for example - retains the mitigation tank. And you can't overlook how small that difference in Defense between an Escort and a Cruiser can be - somewhere in that ~10-15% range.

If a ship does +X damage, it should be able to take/avoid -X damage. That's straight up balance. Thus if you had a ship that did +10 damage, it could take -10 damage. Likewise, if a ship could take +10 damage - it should do -10 damage. (Yes, very rough numbers). The +10 damage ship vs. the -10 damage ship should result in a 50:50 win-loss ratio.

So taking into account the ~10-15% additional chance to miss an Escort, the reduced Hull and Shield Modifier...does that equate to the additional damage that can be done? Then again, for the Cruiser - the additional Hull and the 1.0 base Shield Modifier, does the additional damage that it can take...does that equate to the reduced damage that can be done?

It's not a 1v1, though. It's not an ideal situation. It's not just the two things, either - it's not just damage and taking damage. There's other stuff going on...

...cause add Sci into the mix, and well - it all goes poof.

Balance is an illusion in the game as said. There's just too many things for there to be balance. All the discussions about balance are going to be under ideal circumstances, ignoring the sheer amount of things that could be going on at any given point in the fight.

Outside of things that are obviously broken, not working as intended... well, sometimes you blow crap up and sometimes you get your crap blown up.
Accuacy is better then that. Just try useing a combat tracker you will see accuracy is much higher then the the displayed value's
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,496
# 53
01-19-2013, 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chorkswald View Post
Accuacy is better then that. Just try useing a combat tracker you will see accuracy is much higher then the the displayed value's
That was a sleepy/caffeine-starved post. I should edit it.

The difference between the two does not equate 1:1 in regard to the chance to hit.

There's 100% base Accuracy. There's 100% base Defense. 100% base Accuracy vs. 100% base Defense = 100% Hit.

155% Accuracy vs. 190% Defense is still a 74% chance to hit. The 35% difference between the Acc and Def does not equate to a 35% chance to miss. It's only a 26% chance to miss.

Even without the Accurate trait, pts in Targeting, or Acc weapons - your base Accuracy against somebody with 90% bonus Defense is still going to leave you with around a 52.6% chance to hit.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 54
01-19-2013, 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I will say over and over until my lips are as chapped as the cliffs of Dover that anyone who thinks STO is Escorts Online isn't playing the same game I am.
They probably are not. Because for someone who plays from time to time and is not hardcore OPvP player: STO is Escorts Online. Buth in PUGland (PvP) and in PvE everything you can do with sci or cruiser you can do better with escort.

Trust me, I was such guy and there was HUGE difference between my effectiveness when I was playing sci or cruisers and when I sat in escort. Escort was simply better.

It changed only when I invested a lot of time into PvP (like - 99% of my in game time) when I started to notice difference and moved to cruisers and then scis. Zooming and booming escorts are still fun, but I do not think they are better then other classes. I have my issues with sci powers and eng/cruiser balance, but it like with everything the Cryptic touches.

But let me repeat once again: for common folk, that is playing PvE mostly and do PUGs mostly (and those are like most PVPlayers that are not part of OPvP) STO is escorts online.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Speed and defense is NEEDED in this game or it becomes Cruisers on line again. Speed bonuses to defense where required to balance this game out... you have a short memory if you don't remember the times when escorts went pop so fast that the only people that flew them where people that had a team with 3 healers on it. lol
Actually I think those times need to return. Escorts in ST are generally like Galaxy-class warp core. Look funny at it and it explodes. ST escorts are not USS Defiant with Sisco in it that are immune to everything but plot. Those are Sabres, Akiras, Defiants (Valiant) and Steamrunners that explode left and right when in combat. Escorts should have their defence and survivability severely limited. BUT they should also get similar boost to weapons power. Escorts should be gunboats/torpedo boats.

Blow the target before it starts shooting at you - the only defense available for escorts. Ships for really good pilots with offensive mindset. Not for everyone and their old granny.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,451
# 55
01-19-2013, 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Actually I think those times need to return. Escorts in ST are generally like Galaxy-class warp core. Look funny at it and it explodes. ST escorts are not USS Defiant with Sisco in it that are immune to everything but plot. Those are Sabres, Akiras, Defiants (Valiant) and Steamrunners that explode left and right when in combat. Escorts should have their defence and survivability severely limited. BUT they should also get similar boost to weapons power. Escorts should be gunboats/torpedo boats.

Blow the target before it starts shooting at you - the only defense available for escorts. Ships for really good pilots with offensive mindset. Not for everyone and their old granny.
Well it can never be like the show it is a game and all.

The glass cannon concept is fine and all... but I think the fact is escorts are still more fragile then a cruiser or even a sci ship.... most players are simply terrible cruiser and sci ship players.

The Tone down that some people seem to think needs to happen to defense... has NOTHING at all to do with the defense mechanic... it has to do with doffs. Doffs are pretty much at the root of everything anyone takes as a balance issue lately. I would say the fact that 8 out of 10 escort pilots have 2 Conn AP doffs to keep there omega 3s up 50% of the time is the real issue with the "undead" escort.

Also if we do go back to cruisers online... there will be no "offensive" minded players that will touch an escort... WHY ? when a cruiser can do the same amount of dmg with a ton more survivability... back in the days of Cruisers online. The games best escort players didn't fly them at all... they flew tac cruisers.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 56
01-19-2013, 02:43 AM
Yeah, but DOFFs are the crippled, but soooo loved child of Cryptic and they will not touch them becasue they fear they can harm them. They will sooner do something about primary stats then change DOFFs.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 57
01-19-2013, 02:44 AM
I agree with Devoras.

These are some of the more glaring issues I also have been experiencing.

Well explained mate.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 58
01-19-2013, 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove defense value tied to speed
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Escort - Avoidance Tank.
Escorts used to be avoidance-only tanks, but they're getting to be better at resistance tanking as well, so an escort can often survive longer than a cruiser. There are exceptions of course, but when I play dps I tend to go after cruisers because they're generally easier to kill than escorts.
K'eg/T'lol/Dude/Yak
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,936
# 59
01-19-2013, 03:05 AM
A few observations really quick if you all don't mind.

1) EWP getting a damage boost from +Plasma consoles really is an unintended bug IMHO. They removed the +Kinetics from boosting Gravity Well and the like and it is only a matter of time until they discover this oversight and fix is especially post Embassy.

2) Player A has 900 shields at 60% resist. He also has 20% of shots miss. His EHP becomes 2812 or it will take that much raw damage to drop a facing. IF he increases that miss chance to 25% that does not increase his EHP by a measly 5% (45) oh no. Instead it becomes 3000.

My point? The math behind the scenes needs to be evaluated and overhauled adding consistency and allowing things to scale properly. Everything else is simply a bandaid over the fundamental problems that will continue to get worse with each addition.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,496
# 60
01-19-2013, 03:39 AM
What formula are you using to work Avoidance into EHP?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
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