Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 683
# 61
01-19-2013, 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Transphasic, in particular mines.
Linked crits have to go. Once that is done (i.e. probably never), we can look at what else might need adjustment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove defense value tied to speed
I disagree. Defense being tied to speed makes sense. It penalises escorts that "park" behind their target and it gives things like tractor beams a meaning.

I think the greater problem is that APO gives a significant +defense boost and with doffs one can use only APO3 for even bigger +defense. This leads to your next point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove movement immunity buff from APO
I disagree. I propose that the +defense buff is removed. This brings escort defense values that are inflated beyond reason by APO3 back in line. Maybe also increase the global to 45s to prevent the current APO/APB chaining? (There is currently no permanent uptime on APO like you claim, it's "only" 50%.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.
I think what needs to be changed is the time that the debuff lingers after getting clear of the cloud. What is it now? 30s? That's too long.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,077
# 62
01-19-2013, 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove movement immunity buff from APO
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
I disagree. I propose that the +defense buff is removed. This brings escort defense values that are inflated beyond reason by APO3 back in line. Maybe also increase the global to 45s to prevent the current APO/APB chaining? (There is currently no permanent uptime on APO like you claim, it's "only" 50%.)
In regard to APO...if the +Def was only the 5s in the tooltip instead of 15s - would that be a start? Then there's also the doubledipping - you also get a +Def from the +Spd aspect. Of course, the +Spd lasts 15s instead of the listed 5s as well.

So with APO, you're getting the +Def for 15s instead of 5s. You're getting the +Spd for 15s instead of 5s. You're getting the +Def from the +Spd for 15s instead of 5s (or even if you should get it at all).

***

As a separate question in regard to the uptime on APO, what about an AtB build where you're not looking at that triggered 30s CD on dual APO? I don't have one of the ships that can dual AtB and has a LCdr Tac slot for the APO1. Additionally, would the AP DOFFs stack with the Tech DOFFs in reducing that 60s CD?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 683
# 63
01-19-2013, 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
In regard to APO...if the +Def was only the 5s in the tooltip instead of 15s - would that be a start? Then there's also the doubledipping - you also get a +Def from the +Spd aspect. Of course, the +Spd lasts 15s instead of the listed 5s as well.
I think the +Speed is largely irrelevant for defense. Almost every escort will already be at the speed defense cap without any additional speed buffs.

And I had almost forgotten about the fact that the +defense is actually a bug with the 5s vs 15s thing.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 64
01-19-2013, 04:34 AM
The idea of removing the movement immunity from APO is kind of ridiculous on the face of it... there's only one other tenacity skill in STO (Polarize Hull), sure you can force every 'scort to run it but what's the point other than to just blindly nerf them?

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Last edited by shimmerless; 01-19-2013 at 04:39 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 146
# 65
01-19-2013, 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
The idea of removing the movement immunity from APO is kind of ridiculous on the face of it... there's only one other tenacity skill in STO (Polarize Hull), sure you can force every 'scort to run it but what's the point other than to just blindly nerf them?
Also remember that APO is at a minimum a LtCom power at level 1, and level 2 and 3 are both Commander power. So you have to take this in to consideration as well, and compared to other high level abilities such as Viral Matrix or Eject Warp Plasma, it is not OP by any stretch of the imagination. Also, even though it says "immunity to movement debuffs) there are still ways to stop a ship with APO on it, not a true total immunity.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,786
# 66
01-19-2013, 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
I disagree. I propose that the +defense buff is removed. This brings escort defense values that are inflated beyond reason by APO3 back in line. Maybe also increase the global to 45s to prevent the current APO/APB chaining? (There is currently no permanent uptime on APO like you claim, it's "only" 50%.)
I would disagree with an increase in a attack pattern global... why penalize builds that don't rely on stupid doffs. I like running omega delta beta on a bunch of escorts with no doffs... and I use what makes the most sense... to me in takes more skill and is more fun then just running 2 stupid doffs and macroiing up delta omega delta omega delta omega.

The real issue is the Attack Pattern doffs... they will never change them... of course if they end up nerfing a 1 min cool down 15s up skill because stupid doffs have doubled its uptime... instead of fixing the real issue... which is the doff that doubles its uptime... then we should all /uninstall cause really there is no hope for them if they go that road.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,079
# 67
01-19-2013, 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
What formula are you using to work Avoidance into EHP?
HP/(% dmg taken * % dmg taken)

So in the first example 900 / (.4*.8)
900/.32 = 2,812

This works, here is another way of looking at it. If you reduce damage by half, then reduce damage by half again it would take 4 times the amount of damage to kill you. 100/2 = 50. 50/2 = 25. Follow? .5 * .5 is .25 and anything divided by .25 is the same as * 4.

Escort bonus defense is not the issue. Escort bonus defense being multiplied by the insanely easy to get minimum 50% shield resist if not higher can be an issue. Of course if you strip one of the multipliers away they are easier to kill this is true just like an Escort has a significantly lower burst damage potential without the Tac Cap. abilities being used as multipliers.

The problem arises when said multipliers are exclusive to specific aspects of the mechanics and/or ships and classes and everything else stacks additively. And no I'm not saying to strait up nerf things or what have you. That will not work anyway. I'm saying you need to unify the systems and mechanics so they self correct and are easier to keep balanced. Like make Tac Cap abilities, and Omega for that matter, add on to the multiplier gained from consoles instead of multiplying them and everything else. Make bonus defense increase the chance of a 'glancing' hit while accuracy increases the damage dealt by a glancing hit. Introduce some form of 'ignores % enemy resistance' weapon, weapon mod, ability, whatever.

Till then you can tweak the numbers until your blue in the face and the moment a new item quality, ship, or skill boost is introduced it will all break again.

Sorry I keep editing but I just remembered a case in point example. Diablo 2 PVP while it wasn't the best balanced in the world was still atleast highly enjoyable and competitive. Some builds stomped others hard but for the most part you still had a decent chance if you had better skills than your opponent. Meanwhile Diablo 3 PVP has been pretty much scrapped for now and a big reason is just how laughable unfair and silly it would be when a really well equipped character has nearly 5x the damage output and health of a decently equipped one does. The difference in mechanic system between the two boils down to one simple factor, Diablo 2 systems are mostly additive in nature while Diablo 3 (thanks to the moronic inclusion of resist all among other things) are extremely multiplicative.

Another example, the LoL AP carry vs AD carry. Note this information might be slightly out of date as it has been awhile since I played. The AP carry cannot match the end game damage potential of an AD carry when fully geared because all their damage is additive (base + AP bonus) while the AD carry has multiplicative damage boosts (base * AS bonus * crit bonus).

This game is in the middle. Half the stuff is additive but then you get these weird corner cases like bonus defense, +% damage abilities, and likely a few others I'm forgetting, that completely mess everything up.

Last edited by bareel; 01-19-2013 at 06:37 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,077
# 68
01-19-2013, 06:48 AM
Okay, I've noticed something odd in regard to APO3 and bonus Defense.

Fed Eng. 6 SAP. APO3 tooltip +42.6%.
Chel Grett (Aegis). +90%. Hit APO3. 113.4%. +23.4% instead of +42.6%.
Chel Grett (notAegis). +80%. Hit APO3. 103.4%. +23.4% instead of +42.6%.
Advanced Escort (notAegis). +80%. Hit APO3. 103.4%. +23.4% instead of +42.6%.

KDF Tac. 6 SAP. APO3 tooltip +42.6%.
Chel Grett. +70.3%. Hit APO3. 103.4%. +33.1% instead of +42.6%.
Mirror Qin. +69.5%. Hit APO3. 103.4%. +33.9% instead of +42.6%.

Fed Sci. 0 SAP. APO tooltip +30%.
Chel Grett. +73.4%. Hit APO3. 96.5%. +23.1% instead of +30%.
Patrol Escort: +73.2%. Hit APO3. 96.5%. +23.3% instead of +30%.

KDF Eng. 0 SAP. APO3 tooltip +30%.
Chel Grett. +80%. Hit APO3. 96.5%. +16.5% instead of +30%.

6 SAP gives a 42% boost over 0 SAP. Sure enough, the Fed Eng with 6 SAP has 42% better bonus Defense from APO3 than the KDF Eng with 0 SAP. 16.5 x 1.42 = 23.42...

However, none of them are getting the actual bonus.

There appear to be "caps".

The 80% cap got pointed out earlier. Even at 100+ Eng power, the toons hit 80%.

Then there appears to be an APO3 cap. APO3 won't take you from 80% to 110%. It takes you to 96.5% with 0 SAP. The two toons with SAP 6 - will go to 103.4%. Both of the SAP 6 toons should have received +42.6% - but the one at 80 only received 23.4% while the one at 70.3% received +33.1%. Almost 10% less to start - almost 10% more of a bonus to reach the same end amount.

So I dropped the Tac to quarter impulse in the Mirror Qin. +25.9%. Hit APO3. 40.3%. +14.4%. Not the +42.6% expected.

I dropped the KDF Eng to quarter impulse in the Chel Grett. +30%. Hit APO3. 46.8%. +16.8%. Not the +30% expected.

In looking further at the KDF Eng (since I'm still on him), quarter impulse is 6.25. Hitting APO3 takes him to 9.92. Not hitting APO3, but manually adjusting speed to 9.91 takes him to 41.7%. So, APO3's doing something more than just bumping speed. However, if the speed is taking him to 41.7% - then he's actually only getting 5.1% from the APO3?

So uh...um...just how does APO actually work then?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 69
01-19-2013, 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Transphasic, in particular mines.

Trannie mines needs a look on. These mines do way too much damage in comparison to other mines, with the exception of tricobalts. If the crit link happens, half the huill of a cruiser is gone and is just way too powerful in light of balance, and in comparison to other mines. I would like to see either the damage value lowered or the shield penetration rate reduced.
Not really. The one crits = all crits has to be fixed, after that it's not problematic at all. As a cluster torp using sci ship captain I'm quite certain that the problem is more towards people neglecting their kinetic resistance. Transphasics can hit hard, specially when they crit, but as soon as there is some basic resistance going and maybe an Aux2SIF running even cluster torps lose a lot of their oomph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove defense value tied to speed
I've read the thread, but I don't have an useful opinion yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Remove movement immunity buff from APO

If defense tied to speed wont be altered i would liked to see the movement buff from APO removed. Currently its possible to have permanent uptime on APO using appropiate doffs and double copy of APO. This alone offers the best defense value along with a raw damage bonus which makes escort yet again the best ship in the game, and the remainder sitting ducks. If we are looking to balance the game and the ships, escorts cant have all the goodies while the other 2 classes sit with the mediocre stuff.
Maybe some sort of compromise. How about replace the immunity with an increased hold resistance? This way Graviton Gens buffed Tractor Beams actually have a greater effect than unbuffed but APO (and maybe even PH) still has an effect.

APO is with PH the main counter to holds. This shouldn't be completly removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.

Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over. To prevent this from going overboard, i would like to see an immunity buff given after a ship has been exposed to it once, like they gave to most science skills. Im aware you can use a hazard emitter to remove it, but as long as you drift the EWP AOE you will constantly reapply it until you clear it. Worse is the effect lingers on your ship after you cleared the AOE effect, prolonging the torture. Right now EWP offers a movement halt and it gives the user zone control, along with damage which goes straigh to hull. In my opinion this is just way too much benefit for one skill alone.
Personally I think as long as HE is running the user should be safe against Plasma. If Cryptic could stop breaking this mechanic in some way or the other every now and then, things would look better. As long as there is plasma arround you, it should be able to tick against you. It can be problematic with lots of plasma in a match, but I don't think a simple immunity is the right way to go here.
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,079
# 70
01-19-2013, 06:54 AM
Some base # * 1.42 I would guess.

Most likely I'm assuming your getting +10% I think from manuever skill correct? Possibly even have a trait boosting it maybe?

So you would take ship base * 1.42 to get the bonus from APO, then also add all the other bonuses and get final number. I think most ships are 45% base and escorts at 55% base when at max speed. If you take 55 * .426 you get 23.4 so that makes sense. Interesting Chel Grett gets the escorts bonus 10% defense, very interesting indeed.

Also that is likely still shoved into the speed modification if below 23 impulse as well.

There are no hard caps that I'm aware of on defense. You just get it modified if under 23 impulse is all like you take a penalty to shield regen below 50 power so to speak. Just tested on a toon and hit 137.4 with aegis / APO / EM and even with just APO went up to 114.? due to higher skill rank. Your other toon must have had something else going on to get the larger boost.

Last edited by bareel; 01-19-2013 at 07:10 AM.
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