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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,061
# 31
01-23-2013, 10:12 AM
As we are about to reach T4 I was studying the Fleet Advanced Escort, the one you can use MVAM with. It occurred to me that suddenly here was a ship that could indeed be a bug stomper, suddenly my bug ship seemed redundant, now just as suddenly I'm grinning from ear to ear with the unparalled OPness it is about to regain LOL.

I think we have to see the final stats before we can assume they will dominate PvP but so far it's looking that way, so much for balance Cryptic !
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 32
01-23-2013, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I don't quite get why people have issues with carriers in PvP? Carriers are cool, and battles filled with carrier pets feel a lot more like gigantic space battles (in which the players are the Big Players).

I enjoy carriers in PvP and elsewhere, when I am commanding one, when I am in a team with one and when I am facing one.

And I am looking forward to this lock box. Sure, the decision to make the JHAS carrier pet only available to people who own a T5 JHAS already is weird, but that's about it. And I am looking forward to upgrading my Jem Sets to Mk XII.
I think most people would be okay with carriers if there were just a few of them, and if they were balanced so that they rely on their pets. But the new carriers are ships that would be fine without a hangar -- they are powerful enough without the pets.

If all carriers were like the old KDF ones, and gave up something in order to get the hangar bays, then I don't think there would be much of an issue -- those carriers needed the pets to get by. But ships like the Vesta are great even without launching the pets, and then the pets are just added on.

Cryptic seems to have forgotten that balance requires trade-offs.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,400
# 33
01-23-2013, 10:43 AM
The Worst?
The fact you need the JHAS to unlock the JHAS carrier Pets..
I'm a carrier lover, and I find this appalling. It appeals to Grinders, Farmers, Super Lucky, and Super Rich.

Phased Polarons. Really? I mean it makes sense I guess.. but.. really?

To get the new Consoles for the JHAS, you have to get both Carriers. (And I'm guessing the "true carrier" is more like a Kar'fi)

New Scramble SNB Doff. Add them + SNB doff = No need for Sci officer any more.

Least Worse?
Mirror Ships.

Boarding Party Defense Turret Doff.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,114
# 34
01-23-2013, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I think most people would be okay with carriers if there were just a few of them, and if they were balanced so that they rely on their pets. But the new carriers are ships that would be fine without a hangar -- they are powerful enough without the pets.

If all carriers were like the old KDF ones, and gave up something in order to get the hangar bays, then I don't think there would be much of an issue -- those carriers needed the pets to get by. But ships like the Vesta are great even without launching the pets, and then the pets are just added on.

Cryptic seems to have forgotten that balance requires trade-offs.
Not to say I disagree with you, but we don't know for sure what the stats are on these ships yet.

Generally, lockbox ships are supposed to be equivalent to Fleet ships, or close to it. There's nothing to suggest that these new ships are going to be that much superior to the other Fleet and lockbox ships.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 35
01-23-2013, 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
There's nothing to suggest that these new ships are going to be that much superior to the other Fleet and lockbox ships.
Nothing but past experience.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,114
# 36
01-23-2013, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Nothing but past experience.
Because it's a Jem'Hadar ship?

Or because all of the lockbox ships were supposedly overpowered?

Frankly, the majority of the lockbox ships out there are certainly better than what you can get in the Z-store, but only marginally. I'd say they are on par with Fleet ships. And, honestly, there hasn't been any lockbox ship that has tempted me to switch from my Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit. Hell, nothing made me want to switch from my Tactical Escort Retrofit either. They all seemed too gimmicky to me.

Also, these new Jem'Hadar ships come in a lockbox. The Jem'Hadar Attach Ship comes in the recruitment pack, which costs almost double the cost of obtaining a key from the Z-store. Even then, I've killed and been killed by my share of JHASs.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,205
# 37
01-23-2013, 11:15 AM
Part of the thinking they're going to be over the top is what they did with the Recluse. It's not so much the lockbox carrier (think Orb Weaver) - it's the Lobi carrier - think Recluse, but Tac'd to Hell and back.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,757
# 38
01-23-2013, 11:17 AM
I've thought about it, and I have a new 'worst'. In fact, of all the worse things that could happen...

This is...the WORST possible thing!

(Well...that cat is out of the bag now. )



Anywho...the new 'worst thing' I have is that pretty much this whole box boils down to:

It's pretty much one step forward, and now two steps back. Cryptic was doing well by supporting PvP Bootcamp and such, even with all the recent issues that they've been fixed (Omega shields, Tric mines, etc), things seemed at least decent, PvP-wise...

But now there's whole new lockbox of stuff. In and of itself I don't feel the problem lies there. It's the fact that there is SO MUCH stuff that isn't going to be good for PvP balance at all. I don't want to pass judgement personally on the new ships UNITL I see stats, but even those, the ships are still rare, but the Phased Polarons are gonna be a bad thing still, because ANYONE can run them.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,390
# 39
01-23-2013, 11:28 AM
Best: Cryptic makes more money, so the Devs can pay taxes and afford their health insurance.

Worst: MOAR JEM STUFFS!!!RAAR.

seriously? they take the ship that even Forrest Gump could win with, and they're going to add more powers, more abilities, group abilities, etc. etc. adnauseum to it??


the JHAS requires almost zero effort/intelligence/talent to do well with-it's got the tanking of a Cruiser with the damage of the hardest-hitting escort in the game and the manueverability of a fighter-outstripping pretty much everything else across all three catagories with zero sacrifices made, now they're offering a 'buff' for THAT?
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,205
# 40
01-23-2013, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
I've thought about it, and I have a new 'worst'. In fact, of all the worse things that could happen...

This is...the WORST possible thing!

(Well...that cat is out of the bag now. )



Anywho...the new 'worst thing' I have is that pretty much this whole box boils down to:

It's pretty much one step forward, and now two steps back. Cryptic was doing well by supporting PvP Bootcamp and such, even with all the recent issues that they've been fixed (Omega shields, Tric mines, etc), things seemed at least decent, PvP-wise...

But now there's whole new lockbox of stuff. In and of itself I don't feel the problem lies there. It's the fact that there is SO MUCH stuff that isn't going to be good for PvP balance at all. I don't want to pass judgement personally on the new ships UNITL I see stats, but even those, the ships are still rare, but the Phased Polarons are gonna be a bad thing still, because ANYONE can run them.
I still say it comes down to what I said in another thread.

Cryptic's being smart. They're playing both sides of the coin, so to speak.

Support the PvP Community - show support for things like the Boot Camp, OPvP Channel, Leagues, Private Matches (Scheduling things in OPvP or on the Forums).

Support the MOAR POWA Community - by giving them things that are obvious examples of power creep, yet are not things that are broken and make a complete farce out of the PvE experience (like they're still working on how players can "poop out Dispersal Patterns" of Trics - lol, still chuckle reading that line).

Unfortunately, with the latter - the regular queues and Ker'rat are going to become cesspools of molten cheese and the AFK. The AFKers are fine with that. Those dripping molten cheese for the most part will be fine with it - they'll just try to bring more cheese than the next guy.

But still, there's the former. From actual Fleet Battles to PUGmades, cheese-free matches could take place. It's up to the PvP Community to make that effort, and Cryptic seems willing to support that to an extent...it's a win-win for them.

As that community grows, bringing more folks into classic and cheese-free tourneys/matches... somewhere down the road, Cryptic "might" start adding more on the PvP side... sure, anything like Ker'rat will be a nightmare; but maybe if the PvP Community handles it right - the community could grow that Cryptic would even look at limited/unlimited queues and PvP areas.

In the end, it could very well be both a win-win for Cryptic and the PvP Community.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
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