Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
This isn't a 'buff Engineers' thread or anything, just a few things I wanted to mention that are the main core issues with the class.

1. Engineering BOFF abilities have a lot of shared cooldowns. It's true, there are a LOT of shared cooldowns. Yes, all 3 classes have this, but the shared cooldowns for engineering BOFF powers are more brutal because of their lack of reduction DOFFs. Sci doesn't have a lot, but they also have a LOT of abilities (more on that below). Tacs have HEAPS of DOFFs that do so and also Tactical Initiative itself, which lets them have reduced CDs anyways.

The main way Engineers can have consistant cooldowns is to run an A2B build, and that's pretty costly in terms of BOFFs and DOFF layout. Plus, it's something technically any class can use (not on any ship of course, but it's not an engineering specific thing)

2. LONG cooldowns on a lot of BOFF powers. A good portion of their higher level powers just have REALLY long cooldowns. Some sci skills do as well, but science ships often times have enough options on their ship that they can be doing other things in order to wait it out, plus their own CD reduction stuff (elite deflectors, and a couple DOFFs I think).

2a. Slightly going on the above. There's a real lack of variety of powers as well, especially at lower levels. As such, any ship with more than 6 engineering slots, doubly so if the ship has 3 BOFF slots for engineering (like Galaxy-R, Excelsior, Negh'var, etc), it's very difficult to actually slot something that doesn't have a shared cooldown.

Tacs really don't have very long CDs on most anything outside of like high level Attack Patterns. Even then, it's so easy for them to just reduce it all.

3. Some skills aren't that useful at higher levels. This kind of combines the two things above. The longer cooldowns make you iffy to slot an ability, while rather...meh effects make some powers not that worth using.

Now some DOFFs have been released, like the Aceton Beam DOFF which help, but still don't fix the underlying problem. Long cooldown on an ok ability. I like Aceton Beam personally in PvE, because enemies never remove the debuff, so it can really weaken something, but that is also only one enemy. You could use that slot for EWP instead, which can hit multiple foes and slow them down.

4. Where is an engineer truly needed? I'm not saying the class is worthless, it's more that...where is it needed in the game? Tanking is all well and good in PvE (I do it on my engineers in space), but it is truly needed? Engineers bring no debuffs in their captain powers, a couple of selfish heals, a power drain resistance buff, and EPS, which can be given to others.

In space, scis can debuff, slow down, disable, etc anything that gets close, while a tac can just DPS everything to death. Engineers just...live.



On the ground, they have some good kits, mostly dealing their damage through indirect means with pets and such, scis will again debuff and weaken enemies (and potentially deal damage, usually indirectly because of this as well), while tacs again DPS everything.

Engineers on the ground have good kits like I said, like Enemy Neutralization. But, a couple of their kits involve 'bunkering down', in the cases of Bunker Fabrication, and Fabrication Specialist. Which you don't need very often in this game. Most maps involve you running to and fro, with constant action and stuff going. Very very rarily do you need to stay in one spot. Even then, other kits can still be better as such.

Some of their powers also fall prey to the long cooldown issue. In this case, two very good buffs they can use: Quick Fix and Equipment Diagnostics (even then, only one kit has them both together). Yes they are good buffs, yes they can be given to others, but they have quite long cooldowns, and also require the admiral level skill to even specced into. They're gimped already just due to those things.

At least on the ground, a tac can use Tactical Initiative to reduce everyone's CDs, but that again, is something the TAC is doing for the team, and an engineer has to somewhat rely on that as such.



To me, in space and on ground, DPS isn't really an issue to me. I can deal my fair share of DPS with my engineer however I choose. My D'kora in space does it's job just fine, of tanking and putting out enough damage to not be a liability, while on the ground I can do just about anything: Kill stuff with mines and bombs, or buff myself or someone else with stuff, or summon a ton of pets.

Now, DPS isn't an issue to me, it's more the fact of, where do Engineers fit in, in such a DPS, kill-em-quickly game like this? Tacs and scis are fine in that regard, tacs kill, scis debuff and weaken, what true purpose does an engineer have?



Anyways, feel free to start the flame-fest. I just wanted to get all of this out there. Engineers aren't UP, or OP, it's more that they are hurting in some areas compared to the other two classes.

Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,717
# 2
01-28-2013, 01:28 AM
Engies in space are useless. I doubt that maybe fixing F@W will be sufficient to fix it. But its a good start, and more things need to happen. Their cpt powers need a second look at, and drain mechanics for beam weapons (this concerns FEDs the most), and their BO options might need a second glance via the Doff system as well. As it stands they have nothing to offer that is needed. Fly without a tac, and you won't kill stuff. Fly without a sci, and your tac won't kill stuff. Fly without an eng, and you just finish everything faster then before.
Joined 06.10
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PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 3
01-28-2013, 03:42 AM
Here are some changes I think should be made to engineer captain powers:

Rotate Shield Frequency should provide tractor beam immunity like Polarize Hull does.

EPS Power Transfer should be a toggle that adds the same power bonus to all subsystems as it currently does, but reduces power recharge rate by 75% until you switch it off.

Nadion Inversion should provide an energy weapon damage bonus for its duration.

Miracle Worker should clear DOTs like Hazard Emitters does.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,449
# 4
01-28-2013, 04:07 AM
This isn't a fully fleshed out idea, but a few weeks ago a random thought popped into my head. And it was 'why not make eng space abilities work like ground abilities?'

On the ground and eng is arguably more useful, a few turrets and health generators are a welcome addition. And in personal experience using abilities like weapon malfunction and fuse armour is very handy for those tough targets.

So for space, it would be cool if the same logic applied. The ability to spawn certain structures like sentry guns, torpedo batteries, shield/hull regen units with AoE effects and stuff like that.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 5
01-28-2013, 05:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
Engies in space are useless.
Correction: Fed Engineers in cruisers are useless. KDF-side where every Battlecruiser sports DHCs and the turn rate to use them, Engineers can put out significant DPS and tank well with it - even the squishiest of KDF ships, the BoPs, are hardened immensely by having an Engineer Captain.

Fed side, if you're an Engineer looking to actually deal some damage then you're going to have to fly a Tac Cruiser or Escort - much the same as Sci.

An Engie's greatest strength is in being able to soak up way more damage than a Tac or Sci can dream of - you can either do that in a slow, lumbering ship that already tanks irrespective of Captain, or you can put those skills into a ship that's transformed by having them.

That's not to say I wouldn't change things around a bit - but if you feel your Engineer is 'useless' then perhaps you should consider trying a new ship/spec/style of play - you might like it.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 254
# 6
01-28-2013, 07:36 AM
I think they should give engineers a space/ground agro captain ability (Not talking about the threat control skill box which is a joke in pulling agro effectively). This would allow engineers to physically pull off agro at any given time, why this feature isn't in the game already for the class that is suppose to be the tank is amazing. Considering how old the feature is when it comes to MMO tanking classes. lol This would probably give the tank engineer more purpose again.

Although as a person who mainly plays as a engineer, I could go on all day on what I think would make the class better.

Last edited by mcconna; 01-28-2013 at 07:39 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,666
# 7
01-28-2013, 07:52 AM
Hrmmm, so it's not about Engineer Captains - it's about Engineer BOFFs and ships with more rather than fewer Engineer BOFF slots.

This...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
In space, scis can debuff, slow down, disable, etc anything that gets close, while a tac can just DPS everything to death. Engineers just...live.
...is NOT supported by what you have described up to this point, since you've been talking about Engineer BOFFs. Doesn't matter if it's a Tac or a Sci in that Cruiser, cause you're still talking about the Engineer BOFFs...not the Captain. The only thing that separates the three Captain Careers in Space are the five innate abilities. An Engineer is not a Cruiser nor is an Engineer the Engineer BOFFs. An Engineer is Miracle Worker, EPS Power Transfer, Nadion Inversion, Engineering Fleet, and Rotate Shield Frequency. That's what differentiates an Engineer from a Tac or a Sci. Just the five innate abilities.

But still, getting back to the Engineer BOFFs...

Ensign:
EPtA1, EPtE1, EPtS1, EPtW1, ET1

Lieutenant:
EPtA2, EPtE2, EPtS2, EPtW2, ET2
AtB1, AtD1, AtS1, BP1, DEM1, Extend1, RSP1

Lt. Commander:
EPtA3, EPtE3, EPtS3, EPtW3, ET3
AtB2, AtD2, AtS2, BP2, DEM2, Extend2, RSP2
AB1, EWP1

Commander:
AtS3, BP3, DEM3, Extend3, RSP3
AB2, EWP2
AB3, EWP3

If I remember correctly, Boarding Party is the only one that doesn't share or trigger a CD with something else (either another Eng BOFF ability or a Tac/Sci BOFF ability or a console ability).

Compare that to...

Tac:
EN - 3 vs. 2
LT - 6 vs. 6
LCdr - 6 vs. 7
Cmdr - 3 vs. 5

Sci:
EN - 7 vs. 2
LT - 8 vs. 6 (yes, it adds 7 new abilities here - but you're into shared/triggered CD territory)
LCdr - 9 vs. 7 (3 more added, but you're still looking at shared/triggered CDs)
Cmdr - 7 vs. 5

...if you have a single BOFF slot of that type. Obviously taking into account how different levels of the same ability triggers/shares a CD.

Of course, looking at a single BOFF slot's not realistic. Also, while all that variety for Sci looks nifty - you can't forget all the skills that are behind those abilities. That's going to limit your options there much differently than it would Tac or Eng abilities.

Still though, we move on to multiple BOFF slots. Starting with two, eh?

With the Eng only having "2" at Ensign, it gets rough right off the back once you move to Lieutenant. If you take two EPt abilities at Ensign, well - you're not going to be taking them later. If you take ET, it's unlikely you're going to take another ET because you're already looking at double TT or even trying to fit ST in there. So as you move up the ranks, your choices get narrower faster and faster.

One might be tempted to say, but wait - Eng BOFFs add 4 new groups while Tac only adds 3 at LT. Tac already had 1 more at EN. I'm not even going to bother with Sci for the rest of this discussion, because the variety and the limitations there - well, that stands out like mustard on a tie.

So we move on to LCdr. Eng BOFFs add another group while Tac doesn't. The Eng BOFFs are better off, right? Better selection? Well, you have to consider what groups have likely been "removed" at this point - the R3 abilities that are not likely to be used because they were already taken at R1 or R2.

Let's drop the Tac list in here for an easier reference:

Ensign:
FAW1, BO1, BtA1, BtE1, BtS1, BtW1, THY1, TS1, TT1

Lieutenant:
FAW2, BO2, BtA2, BtE2, BtS2, BtW2, THY2, TS2, TT2
APB1, APD1, CRF1, CSV1, DPA1, DPB1

Lt. Commander:
FAW3, BO3, BtA3, BtE3, BtS3, BtW3, THY3, TS3, TT3
APB2, APD2, CRF2, CSV2, DPA2, DPB2
APO1

Commander:
APB3, APD3, CRF3, CSV3, DPB3
APO2,
APO3


Well then, just like we know the limitations that exist for the Sci BOFF abilities comes from skills - it's quite apparent that the limitations for Tac BOFF abilities comes from weapons. If you're running DHCs/Turrets - then you're only looking at 18 potential abilities and ignoring 29 of them.

Do they add a DBB for BO? If they're adding the DBB are they adding a Torp? So now they're looking at a form of rainbow build...splitting tac consoles?

Yep, it's very apparent that both Tac and Sci BOFF abilities have some offsetting balance doohickeys tossed in there to reflect the choices they have.

So am I saying there's no problem with Eng BOFFs? Hell no - the problem is right there - right from the start - basically right there at the start. Ensign Engineering...

Let's look at the categories.

Tac: Beams, Torps, Teams
Sci: Hull Heals, Shield Heals, Shield Drains, Snares, Resistances, Placates/Perception, Teams...er...yeah.
Eng: Emergency Power, Teams

All three share Teams. So that has to be taken into consideration. The Beams for Tac BOFFs has to deal with Subsystem Targeting if you're in a Sci boat - but the way the CDs work there, it's nothing like Teams.

Tac EN - 9 abilities/3 groups
Sci EN - 8 abilities/7 groups
Eng EN - 5 abilities/2 groups

5 Eng EN BOFF abilities...with two groups. That's the problem. That's what's missing.

Even adding a single Engineer BOFF ability at Ensign level - something that would EN 1, LT 2, LCdr 3 - even if it shared a CD with a console ability - well, that would change things enormously. Add two abilities that share the same group...it would help extremely.

So what could they add? Maybe we could look to see what's missing from Ground?

Mines - weapons.
Malfunction - ships, consoles, Tactical BOFFs, Science BOFFs, Science Captains.
Shield Generator - consoles.
Turrets - devices.
Barrier - consoles.
Medical Generator - consoles/Science Captains.
Mortar - devices.
Drones - ships/Science Captains.

Well then...hrmmm...looks like Engineering got pillaged. Given to somebody else or put in the Z-Store...

Maybe there's some stuff that Tac/Sci didn't take to Space and didn't end up somewhere else that makes sense for Engineering? Can kind of see where some of it has been spread around already...but with having lost so much, there's not really that much left.

Threat Generation? Heck, even that's gone with DOFF'd APD.

Meh, let's bring Captain abilities into the mix shall we?

BAZINGA! Well, bazinga - but still.

EPS Power Transfer and Nadion Inversion.

But those are Captain abilities - they can't be BOFF abilities as well. ORLY? Take a look - there's already shared Captain and BOFF abilities. So of course they can. But wouldn't that give Engineer Captains double abilities in Space? Perhaps - if both were usable on themselves.

Captain - self.
BOFF - friend/ally.

Wouldn't they just share/trigger CDs with EPt? Why? Do the current Captain abilities do that? No. So there would be no reason for them to do so.

EPS Power Transfer1, EPS Power Transfer2, EPS Power Transfer3
Nadion Inversion1, Nadion Inversion2, Nadion Inversion3

Something to give somebody in a Cruiser or ship with lots of Eng BOFF slots to bring a little something more to the team, eh? Sure, sure... but that doesn't do anything for Engineers...

...as noted at the start, this discussion's obviously not about Engineers - it's about Engineer BOFFs. Still, I find it amazing how many people have replied to this thread discussing Engineers instead...

So what do you think?


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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,502
# 8
01-28-2013, 08:34 AM
i am mostly annoyed by the Kit ground abilities in ground PvP.

the healing generator stuff is nice, but with it being stationary it is easily destroyed and you have to sit and wait to heal up -> nothing compared to the healing/tanking power of a sci or even a hypo.

my suggestion -> turn the healing generators, both health and shields, into drones that follow you around!

a Sci has to select a friendly player and us a power on him, these drones would just throw out their AoE heal around you, so any Tac would like to stay near you while fighting enemies. Instead of hoping that a sci actually does his medic job in the right moment.


that is number 1


number 2 are the Phaser Turrets and Quantum Mortars.

very nice vs. the brainless NPC zombie parades that you can just pull into range, but players are
- intelligent enough to stay out of range
- intelligent enough to destroy them,
- intelligent enough to evade the quantum mortar indicator, which gives them plenty of warning

also, while in a direct fight no engineer will sit down for what feels like a minute to beam down a turret, in the time you kneel down the other player will have killed you before your turret has even materialized.

now compare that to a tactical officer, who just has a short *tap combadge* animation (less then a second) and beams down a small redshirt army (thx DOffs!) that follow him around and do not disrupt him long enough to miss two shots (one shot MAYBE).

so
- remove the indicator for the Quantum Mortar, or make it not so damn obvious, OR reduce the time the warning lights up (maybe a combination of it)
currently anyone who is not asleep can evade it easily, that makes them Mortars pretty much useless in PvP.
the only thing they are somewhat effective against is if another engineer has put down his stuff and your mortar randomly decides to target his generators/turrets instead of a player that just runs away screaming.

The Phaser Turrets just really need to beam down faster, the kneeling down animation just takes to damn long compared to the Security Escorts.

Even beaming down the 2 drones takes longer than beaming down the Escorts, but those are ok with me because they stay around longer. you can do it out of battle in preparation for the next battle, the Escorts are beaming away if nobody shoots at you in the next 2-5 seconds.


None of my suggestions would change the efficiency in PvE, but in PvP the abilities would not suck so much.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,717
# 9
01-28-2013, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
Correction: Fed Engineers in cruisers are useless. KDF-side where every Battlecruiser sports DHCs and the turn rate to use them, Engineers can put out significant DPS and tank well with it - even the squishiest of KDF ships, the BoPs, are hardened immensely by having an Engineer Captain.

Fed side, if you're an Engineer looking to actually deal some damage then you're going to have to fly a Tac Cruiser or Escort - much the same as Sci.

An Engie's greatest strength is in being able to soak up way more damage than a Tac or Sci can dream of - you can either do that in a slow, lumbering ship that already tanks irrespective of Captain, or you can put those skills into a ship that's transformed by having them.

That's not to say I wouldn't change things around a bit - but if you feel your Engineer is 'useless' then perhaps you should consider trying a new ship/spec/style of play - you might like it.
the tankiness that the eng brings to any faction or ship, does not outweigh the lack of SNB. I'm sorry, but if i can have one more eng/cruiser or a sci/cruiser with the same set-up kdf side, I prefer the sci on my team.

Even in a healing recluse, with a jump console the Eng advantage is nullified.
Joined 06.10
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PvP 2012-2013
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 10
01-28-2013, 09:01 AM
I agree on shared CDs and the lack of variety, even if some of the best eng abilities also have a very short CD, such as aux to SIF. On ground they just do way more dps than tacs, no other class can almost OS a Cmdr level group of mobs, so the complaints about ground aren't really legitimate. Scis also have one kit, medic, and the rest is garbage.

There are many useless and poorly designed abilities in this game, but scis have most of them, while engs can do what they've been designed for pretty well (dedicated healer in space and DPS machine on ground). And no one has counter to Eng buffs while all sci powers have some counters on almost all tac or eng abilities. I see no reason to complain about my engineer char, he's doing fine and the way i play him is a great experience to me. I agree on the lack of variety, but it's not an engineering specific issue.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-28-2013 at 09:03 AM.
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