Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,413
# 101
01-26-2013, 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zahinder View Post
Uh, Hippiejon, the people suggesting a category/tab/tag for grinders aren't the pro-grinder people, they are the folks who don't want stories hidden below hundreds of grinder missions who seek a cooperative/fruitful change to the system.
Then I would disagree with them too , man.
Regardless of the reasoning , adding a tab specifically for such grinders, does nothing except legitimize cheating.

Again, take away all rewards from the Foundry.
I do not care, and it may actually be the only solution.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,822
# 102
01-26-2013, 07:01 AM
I'm ok with it because in print media I keep harping about how our current crop of political leaders never compromise, so it would be pretty hypocritical of me not to compromise.

So if grinders want to participate in a poor game design, if they want to keep showing Cryptic that the playerbase loves grind and if they want to perpetuate the exorcism of everything Star Trek from this game, which is what they are doing by making these missions, I say fine, let 'em.

But get them the frack away from my story missions. Better UI or Bust!

I'm also of the opinion hippiejohn that there should be no rewards. Playing a well-done mission is its own reward, and if people can't enjoy their time playing without some sort of carrot dangling in front of them, then what are they doing playing at all?

However. Anyone seen Lincoln? Well mostly-spoiler free version, there's a very influential Congressman who has fought for something his whole life, and part of the story is about him compromising so he can achieve a very important part of that lifelong goal. It isn't a total victory for him, but its an important step.

I think a better Mission UI, with a category list that is the very first screen anyone sees before they see a single mission, is the compromise that would be a major victory. It's not all of what I want, but it is achievable.
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Last edited by drogyn1701; 01-26-2013 at 07:06 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 508
# 103
01-26-2013, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiejon View Post
These things should not have their own category.
Cryptic should instead recognize the damage this does and do something about it.
People SHOULD report these En MASSE.
We should be complaining about this.
Not because we're OH So high and mighty and you should only play our missions, or whatever other maddness you Foundry haters are ascribing to us today.

But because these missions are plainly cheats , or ways to "game" the system, and they are damaging the in game economy.
Season 7 damaged the economy far, far more. These missions are simply the player's response to absolutely abyssmal piece of crap update that jacked up the grind to 11. You want to rage, rage at cryptic.

Otherwise, people have every right to make missions as they see fit -- and not have to fall into whatever category the high and mighty HippeJohn sees as fitting in his Foundry.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 508
# 104
01-26-2013, 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drogyn1701 View Post
So if grinders want to participate in a poor game design, if they want to keep showing Cryptic that the playerbase loves grind and if they want to perpetuate the exorcism of everything Star Trek from this game, which is what they are doing by making these missions, I say fine, let 'em.
/sigh

Accolade grinds have existed in the Foundry for a long, long time. But they were never really popular. Until know. Why? What changed?

FRAKKIN SEASON 7.

Grinders are not a cause, but a sympton of Cryptic's own bad game design. At least get your ranting right.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,633
# 105
01-26-2013, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiejon View Post
Are people really asking that Cryptic make an official category for "grinders" ?

This has passed ridiculous. Are people so attached to cheating the system that they now are actually calling for someone to legitimize their cheating ?

Loading into a map full of Max level enemies all set to timid so they won't fight back, and are stacked on top of each other so you get 25 kills for 1, and all the Loots is cheating.

Loading into a mission where you set up your Boffs and press a button then go afk for 15 minutes and come back and collect the loots, is cheating.

And now people are calling for these pieces of crap to have their own category ?
What the ever living FV** is wrong with people ?

NO.
These things should not have their own category.
Cryptic should instead recognize the damage this does and do something about it.
People SHOULD report these En MASSE.
We should be complaining about this.
Not because we're OH So high and mighty and you should only play our missions, or whatever other maddness you Foundry haters are ascribing to us today.

But because these missions are plainly cheats , or ways to "game" the system, and they are damaging the in game economy.

You can try and defend these steaming piles of manure as real missions, that are somehow valuable. I will continue to laugh at such claims, and simply see them as desperate cheaters trying to somehow defend their cheating ways.

Give these things their own tab ?
How about ... NO.
I agree in spirit but not in the details. I like the idea of having combat simulation missions.

My thoughts:

no drops from "timid creature" 'enemies'

FM and Dil rewards for a combat simulation should be based on number and difficulty of enemies that YOU(and your boffs) kill. Timid creatures don't count.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 129
# 106
01-26-2013, 09:56 AM
When will you all realize that that the player base has changed?
The so called story content was weak to begin with and got worse over time. The story content was slowly replaced with grind content. The players followed suit. The story oriented gamers moved on and the grind oriented players took their place.

The spirit of Trek was minimized to the point where this game is nothing more than a generic MMO with Star Trek skins. Heck I think if the devs lost the franchise tomorrow and subsequently replaced all the models with generic scifi ships, weapons and race names, the people would still stay to grind on.

So at this point the only thing around 80% of the STO players are interested in is the grind and reward. You may not like it, but this is still a fact.

While the foundry lacked the real reward, it was an obscure part of weird and useless things. By the nerds for the nerds you know. The accolade hunt missions were useful for once or twice but that was it. Then someone figured the fast leveling exploit and was used in this manner for a while. It was fixed eventually.

Then with the dil wrapper was added. The devs and the authors were thinking that the grinders will stop grinding and start to play missions when they realize that there are plenty available. All they need is a little incentive to look into the dark corner called foundry. But it didn't happen. The story content of a given mission does not compute in the grind equation of dil/hour. Or maybe it does, in a negative way. Hence the clickies become the new fav exploit.

Everyone saw the faliure of the wrapper, so it was changed to fight the clickies. The change did kill them, but introduced a new kind of exploit. The idea was that the player will do a story mission in the mandatory 20 mins. But why would he do that? Isn't doing nothing much easier than doing something? The rumbles were introduced, where the player sits (or skips) through an "epic" or "training" battle without doing anything to get the reward.

Adding reward will only marginally increase the playthrough of story missions. The grinders will still not care, they play exploit missions. For the small number non grinders, the reward is a minor incentive, but still something.

Removing rewards will have the same effect on the playthrough of story missions. The grinders will not care about foundry so the exploit missions would not clog up the search. Subsequently, it would be easier for the small number non grinders to find good missions. That can serve as a minor incentive, too.

All in all, the playthrough rate of story missions will not change whatever you do. The grinders are not interested in story. And the player who are interested in story are playing a different game.

Last edited by pendra3780; 01-26-2013 at 10:06 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 107
01-26-2013, 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomictiki View Post
Dude, never ever suggest making Cryptic's grinds harder. The ways to get X resources should increase not decrease since the game has gone Zynga.

You're just being spiteful against a playstyle you don't like.

No, I am simply asserting that it has its place and that particular thing's place might not be in the foundry. Big fan of wild and unreasonable accusations then?

Why is it that you, a grinder, feel you have the right to impose your own agenda as a given, beyond any consideration, and then accuse others of trying to somehow oppress you if they don't care for it?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,413
# 108
01-26-2013, 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
I agree in spirit but not in the details. I like the idea of having combat simulation missions.

My thoughts:

no drops from "timid creature" 'enemies'

FM and Dil rewards for a combat simulation should be based on number and difficulty of enemies that YOU(and your boffs) kill. Timid creatures don't count.
Kill X number of a specific type of enemy are actually valuable missions for accolade seekers who cannot get certain accolades any other way. So long as the player is involved in the mission and cannot just AFK or timid creature their way through, I do not consider it a cheat.

I really like this "timid creature" not dropping anything idea.
Tying the FM and Dil to the # and difficulty of enemies would probably be difficult, but if it could be done, I really like these two solutions.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,045
# 109
01-26-2013, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendra3780 View Post
And the player who are interested in story are playing a different game.
And Foundry authors are either writing missions for that different game or slapping together grinders that match the quality of Cryptic's slapped together grinders.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,045
# 110
01-26-2013, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiejon View Post

I really like this "timid creature" not dropping anything idea.

I like it too, but I doubt it willl get on a programmer's schedule. More likely, the timid behavior will just be removed from our Foundry... IF there is a decision to do something.
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