Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 21
01-23-2013, 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Accx3 is extremely overrated. Yes it gives you overflow crth and crtd. NO it is no where near equal.
I never parsed it but it always seemed like this was true, there have been too many times when I gave my accx3 weapons a try again only to have to evasive away to exit combat and equip CrtHx3 weapons, The overflow really doesn't hlep crit nearly as much as CrtH does otherwise there would be no point in CrtH

Even if you manage to gets someone into negative defense. (which is pretty much impossible these days vs a non noob)... even then you would be lucky to get an extra 1-2% of crth... and perhaps 10-20% of crtd.... ACC is no replacement for the real thing.

Stick with your CRTHx3... they do far more dmg then CRTD... which imo is still a pretty much useless stat.

Mostly these days I run... [acc] [crth]x2... as when you DO crit your sevarity will be effected by Acc/Def ratings... you get a pretty good natural ACC with full spec and Acc captain trait... having the extra 20 from accx3... IS NOT worth the lose of 4% crit hit.

I haven't been using any acc mods, have acc trait max targeting and omega deflector, seems to hit enough.

basicly with one ACC mod and proper spec you will land hits so that won't be an issue... and the overage difference +20 will give you would in an absolute best scenario might be an extra .75% or so.

CRTD... last I tested it is pretty much junk... what it does is provid 10% stronger crits (overall)... as the 20% in provides is 20% of the CRITICAL dmg. Meaning if you where to land a perfect 1000... if it crit it would be 1500... if you have CRTDx3 it would be 1800... that is hardly worth the trade in crit... or acc.
it does seem like the DHC innate severity, the severity bonus from borg and tachykinetic console, and from max energy weapon specializiations make my DHC still crit pretty hard and a lot I think I will stick with this
Excellent post, best advise so far, I think you are right from what I have experienced, and you have tested it to back up my suspicions, thanks. Responses in red.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,276
# 22
01-23-2013, 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blznfun View Post
And what this discussion boils down to is play style, personal preference. No one way is better than the other. I just would rather make sure I hit my target than to rely on the "chance" to hit and then try to top that off with the "chance" to do massive amounts of crits with damage. In a team setting spamming holds and defense/damage debuffs, I can see the advantage of it, but still, I like to know I am hitting my target and getting the good damage and fair crits than that chance to miss it and my kill...

If your a gambling type person then yes, Hx3 makes more sense.
Thats my point... its not a gamble.

1) go do some proper parsing... with a captain with ACC trait and 9 points in the skill tree... the hit to miss ratio is with in a few % points of the same captain running ACCx3 weapons.

2) 1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y ) ... is a good standard probability formula that will tell you how often you will crit when you take multiple tries. (again consider that STO we don't fire ONE weapons we fire 4 at a time)... which means 2% is a BIG BIG number in terms of real world performance.....
Using 1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y ) think of it this way....

4 shots
2% crit rate = 7.76% chance to land 1 crit in the volley
4% crit rate = 15.07% chance to land 1 crit in the volley
6% crit rate = 21.92% chance to land 1 crit in the volley

Just for real world numbers with my [acc][crth]x2 weapons... EVERY SINGLE volley I fire I have a 55% chance to land a crit. EVERY Volley. I can tell you thats pretty accurate as well.

That is hardly gambling anymore.
Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 23
01-23-2013, 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blznfun View Post
I agree to a point, but then again I have never used tractors in my build to stop targets. I always end up with a higher crit or damage chance but my actual damage seems to go down according to ACT because of the miss factor. Maybe I am missing something here, but I have been using the same version of this build since open beta and I have a pretty nice success rate with it. If I am fighting someone that I want to go down and I have the right assistance, it works wonders. But then again you can't go at a skilled team alone anyways. It doesn't matter what you have as some like to think...
I try to have at least 1 Tb slotted, and 2xTB for my Sci. The obvious is it can drop a target's defensive rating by a lot and pins the target to expose 1 shield facing.

Less obvious is the defensive utility in terms of positional advantage allowing me to get out of high dps arcs. I play KDF and it also helps to create a distance, if evasives happens to be on cooldown, from me and the incoming damage. If a team gets too much seperation it can also be helpful to keep support pinned at a distance.

I currently use 3xCritH on 3 DHCs and a 2xAcc 1xCritD on a 4th DHC. I use Vet ship in Tactical mode which has a boost to targeting in addition to Omega Deflector (though Fleet deflectors give this out as well). I know I give up pressure DPS based on the misses I see, so I'd probably be better of w/Accx1 and CritHx2 if I wanted a more pressure oriented DPS. But, for spiking if/when I get Romulan Boffs then I'd think CritD would be better for my playstyle.

Your playstyle is different and I can see where if you do not have way to lower a target's defensive rating you'd prefer Accx3. I just don't think there's a cut and dry answer.

Last edited by p2wsucks; 01-23-2013 at 09:36 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 223
# 24
01-23-2013, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
With healing the way it is right now 9 times out of 10 yes it is a crit string that will kill someone. People don't die in this game with out being the victim of crits unless they really really mess up... are afk... or have been playing for a month.

No I am not saying gear is all important .... frankly I could likely beat most people in this game with green weapons... even considering the dmg buff to purples. Skill trumps gear as always... however if you are selecting the best gear in a min max setup... yes I am saying Critical chance for a tactical is the most important stat you can have. In most MMOs you don't get the crazy number of Swings we get in STO... think about it in many MMOs you see 50-70& crit chances pretty standard... STO you don't you see 10-20% out of a tac... however we get to take 4-20 swings within a 5-10s window... and at that point yes the laws of probability clearly tell us that the tac with 20% crit rate is going to land 8-12 crits out of 20 swings... and the tac that has 10% (and sometimes 12% if the stars align and they get a fat Defense/ACC split) is only going to land 3-6 crits. Even if I stipulated that 20% of the guys shots would miss with out an ACC mod. (which I don't because it would be more like 1 in 20 would miss)... the answer is clear... the guy with close to double the crit rate is going to KILL someone the way the game is right now... and the guy with out is going to watch his target scoot away and heal up.

Oh my sorry for the wall of text. lol
I get your point. We are arguing the same point (I think). But in a team setting, focus firing, I just don't see the need when it comes down to fractions of a second anyways especially when the target is spam held and sub-nuked with the other team in shambles.

If you happen to single out your target and your team is solely relying on you to kill that target, then I can definitely see the advantages if you land those hits successfully...

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,737
# 25
01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
If you're really using a TB, you never need anything but CritD.

You can never increase your acc as significantly as you can decrease someones defense.

And you already know that you never miss once you've nailed someone down with TB.

So. Just think for a sec. Is any amount of acc overflow just from the acc mod on your weapons as significant as straight up CritH? No of course not, it never is. And now your looking at it at it at the lowest its incremental value can be and that is when the variance between your acc and thier def is at its highest. In otherwords, you've already piled on HUGE amounts of acc overflow. So that Crit H may not even be that helpful anymore. Even at the dismal rates that acc overflow converts to Crit H, you're piling huge amounts of it on. How much better can your chances of critting get?

Not very much. So you take Crit D.

Unless your NOT using a TB and your NOT using BO3. That case you're on your own.

EDIT: You can get anyone in this game into negative defense. It isn't exactly a difficult task.

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Last edited by thissler; 01-23-2013 at 09:43 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 26
01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I brag about more KILLS... and thats what crit does for you. Your right of course piloting and smart play will get you that... but having a smart build is also part of it... having burst potential is key... and yes I believe that crth is much more bursty then acc... I am not saying ACC is bad... just that ACCx3 is way overrated.

Yes I see plenty of accx3 escorts running around all proud of there 1 mil in dmg in a match... what numbers like that really tell me is they have a horrible build. If you can't kill someone in under 60k worth of dmg in an escort your doing it terribly wrong. imo
Since going to all CritH I notice sometimes my overall damage in my defiant or BOP is lower then with my accx3 weapons, but my kills are higher and my deaths are lower due to spending less time wearing a target down and just spiking them quickly. I am especially noticing this big time in my BOP since it uses a more of a spike build then in my defiant with 2 DHC 1 DBB 1 torp on my BOP rather then 3 DHC 1 torp on my defiant.

Also I am noticing that in matches where someone else on my team is in a 4 DHC bugship and I am in my BOP spiker I often end up with around 2/3 of their total damage after a match but with more kills due to them spending more time dogfighting and me just decloaking tractoring and spiking. I think with the BO3 and HY3 quantums it often ends up around 50-70k damage when they die if I kill them all on my own.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 27
01-23-2013, 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
If you're really using a TB, you never need anything but CritD.

You can never increase your acc as significantly as you can decrease someones defense.

And you already know that you never miss once you've nailed someone down with TB.

So. Just think for a sec. Is any amount of acc overflow just from the acc mod on your weapons as significant as straight up CritH? No of course not, it never is. And now your looking at it at it at the lowest its incremental value can be and that is when the variance between your acc and thier def is at its highest. In otherwords, you've already piled on HUGE amounts of acc overflow. So that Crit H may not even be that helpful anymore. Even at the dismal rates that acc overflow converts to Crit H, you're piling huge amounts of it on. How much better can your chances of critting get?

Not very much. So you take Crit D.

Unless your NOT using a TB and your NOT using BO3. That case you're on your own.
I notice my CrtHx3 DBB with BO3 is often critting for 30k-50k which if doesn't kill them outright the high yield quantums do. I think it would help a lot for cruisers that can sometimes survive all that.

I am not sure how the formula works but even if their defense is 0 when tractored and I have acc overflow I still don't have anywhere near 100% crit chance right?

So on most targets that I can normally kill with crits without any CrtD mods the CrtHx3 would still be useful in helping ensure I crit as much as possible, and the CrtD weapons with stronger crits would only really help me with stronger targets like an Oddy or Recluse?

Anyway thanks for your perspective, I mostly built my bop similar to yours so will test CrtD on it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 28
01-23-2013, 10:06 PM
It's not unheard of for Escorts to have over 40k hull. Add in 50% resists hull and 75% resists shields, imo you'd be better w/CritD depending on what your crit rate is. There a crap ton a boost to CritH anymore, though I can see w/a BO build you'd want CritH maxed for that, but CritD for Cannons.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,798
# 29
01-23-2013, 10:46 PM
Nom Nom Nom.

Such tasty and useful info from "antoniosalieri."

When someone asks about weapon mods, I will point them to this thread.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,421
# 30
01-23-2013, 11:04 PM
@marc8219

As far as Acc, CrtD and CritH it all comes down to playstyle. Everyone is slightly different in how they build the ship and how they control it. You can give 2 people identical builds and they will preform different and they may improve with different tweaks. Now that you have the information it is best to find out what works best for you since the thread is turning from informational to a debate as most of these threads do.

The scenario debate usually end out splitting hairs. Usually a properly built team will address these issues assuming you can build on each others strengths and needs.
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