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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,997
# 21
01-24-2013, 04:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eatsmart View Post
How are you getting such low damage numbers o.0 are you powering them by treadmill?

This work in progress build is getting 550-650 avg damage per shot without powers active, and 1100-1250 per shot during NI+faw+omega
The OP's damage is low, likely because he doesn't run his ship on full weapon power. You can conclude this from the weapon damage given while under Nadeon Inversion.

But beams' unerwhelming performance are an issue, everybody who has eyes can see that, claims about "10 k dps" (sustained? spike?) notwithstanding.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 657
# 22
01-24-2013, 04:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
What I would love to see from those who claim beams are 'fine'.
Beams are fine. If you're trying to match cannon DPS, you're doing it wrong. Beams =/= cannons. Larger firing arc = lesser damage output. It's really that simple.

Beams will never achieve the same damage output of cannons. If you want that much damage, start flying a ship that can load cannons.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 23
01-24-2013, 04:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
Beams are fine. If you're trying to match cannon DPS, you're doing it wrong. Beams =/= cannons. Larger firing arc = lesser damage output. It's really that simple.

Beams will never achieve the same damage output of cannons. If you want that much damage, start flying a ship that can load cannons.
Beams are fine, said the escort. Main problem is perhaps in the fact, that escorts tank/evade on par on cruisers, but do much more dmg. So obviously people in cruisers want also give a punch with their beams...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 657
# 24
01-24-2013, 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Beams are fine, said the escort. Main problem is perhaps in the fact, that escorts tank/evade on par on cruisers, but do much more dmg. So obviously people in cruisers want also give a punch with their beams...
If you think escorts can "tank/evade on par with cruisers", you're sadly mistaking. First off, cruisers don't evade, they're slow lumbering boats. They get more hull points, more engineering stations, and when flown by an engineer, get innate heals and even greater healing bonuses. Cruisers can, and always will, out-heal an escort. They will ALWAYS be capable of absorbing more damage than an escort.

The only thing an escort can do is kill its target before its target kills the escort. We escort pilots have become quite good at that, which is why many players seem to be under the incredibly wrong assumption that escorts can tank.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,997
# 25
01-24-2013, 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
Beams are fine. If you're trying to match cannon DPS, you're doing it wrong. Beams =/= cannons. Larger firing arc = lesser damage output. It's really that simple.
[...]
If you are reading this thread as "beams should do the same damage as cannons", then you are doing it wrong.

Sure a DHC ship should do significantly more damage with its 4 front DHC's than a Single Beam array (or even DBB) ship with its 4 forward beam weapons. After all, it is sacrificing something for it. However, it is not sacrificing as much as it gets. I am better off with using a 4DHC/4 turret build on my extremely-low turning BortasQu in terms of "dps under red alert" than when using a 6beam/2torps build. I can even get by with just 2 tactical teams and 1 CRF1 as my only tactical powers, because that way, the DHC cannon ship still outperforms a beam ship that uses A Lt Com tac for the beams.

That is the issue.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 237
# 26
01-24-2013, 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
What I would love to see from those who claim beams are 'fine'.

Video of you killing the starbase in the Tau system. I can do it in all of my cannon ships but have yet to see a beam boat do it.
I did it with a Vesta, but I didn't make a video. I started shooting at it, went to McDonalds for a Big Mac, dropped off the water bill at the local municiple, then came home, ate my Big Mac, watched the Regeneration episode of Enterprise, and...
POP!
It was gone.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,997
# 27
01-24-2013, 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
If you think escorts can "tank/evade on par with cruisers", you're sadly mistaking. First off, cruisers don't evade, they're slow lumbering boats. They get more hull points, more engineering stations, and when flown by an engineer, get innate heals and even greater healing bonuses. Cruisers can, and always will, out-heal an escort. They will ALWAYS be capable of absorbing more damage than an escort.
Uhm, no. I can build an Armitage that can tank the command ships in HOSE (yes, especially the lance weapons), using this funny concept known as "Defense".

Yes, being shot at and not being hit is tanking, too.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 28
01-24-2013, 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
If you think escorts can "tank/evade on par with cruisers", you're sadly mistaking. First off, cruisers don't evade, they're slow lumbering boats. They get more hull points, more engineering stations, and when flown by an engineer, get innate heals and even greater healing bonuses. Cruisers can, and always will, out-heal an escort. They will ALWAYS be capable of absorbing more damage than an escort.

The only thing an escort can do is kill its target before its target kills the escort. We escort pilots have become quite good at that, which is why many players seem to be under the incredibly wrong assumption that escorts can tank.
Obviously, you have never tried to do tanky escort build.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 657
# 29
01-24-2013, 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
If you are reading this thread as "beams should do the same damage as cannons", then you are doing it wrong.

Sure a DHC ship should do significantly more damage with its 4 front DHC's than a Single Beam array (or even DBB) ship with its 4 forward beam weapons. After all, it is sacrificing something for it. However, it is not sacrificing as much as it gets. I am better off with using a 4DHC/4 turret build on my extremely-low turning BortasQu in terms of "dps under red alert" than when using a 6beam/2torps build. I can even get by with just 2 tactical teams and 1 CRF1 as my only tactical powers, because that way, the DHC cannon ship still outperforms a beam ship that uses A Lt Com tac for the beams.

That is the issue.
Doing a straight math comparison, in simple language for you (using Mk XII):

DHC: 45 degree arc, 384 base damage, 256 base DPS
Beam array: 250 degree arc, 220 base damage, 176 base DPS

Beam arrays get almost 600% the firing arc of DHCs, but only take a 43% decrease in base damage. Or, flipped another way, DHCs do approximately 170% as much damage as beam arrays, but take a 82% decrease in their firing arc.

The DPS calculations have very similar numbers: DHCs do only 50% more base DPS.

According to the math above, beams should do much less damage than they currently do, or cannons should do a whole lot more. It balances out, though, because a cruiser can consistently keep broadsiding targets with their beams, while an escort has to face their target and keep one single shield facing subject to almost all the incoming fire. Cruisers can rotate from one side to the other, turn to fire torpedos, etc.

Now you try telling me, again, what's wrong with beams?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 657
# 30
01-24-2013, 05:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Obviously, you have never tried to do tanky escort build.
I fly a Steamrunner with 2x EPtS, 2x Aux2Strut, 1x HE, 2x Tactical Team. MACO shield, skill points in starship armor, shields, blah, blah, over 70 shield power, red matter capacitor, etc. That's about as "tanky" as you can make an escort. It still doesn't match the tanking capabilities of even a "half-decent" cruiser.
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