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Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 31
01-24-2013, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
If you think escorts can "tank/evade on par with cruisers", you're sadly mistaking. First off, cruisers don't evade, they're slow lumbering boats. They get more hull points, more engineering stations, and when flown by an engineer, get innate heals and even greater healing bonuses. Cruisers can, and always will, out-heal an escort. They will ALWAYS be capable of absorbing more damage than an escort.

The only thing an escort can do is kill its target before its target kills the escort. We escort pilots have become quite good at that, which is why many players seem to be under the incredibly wrong assumption that escorts can tank.
My Eng can tank (in PVE) better in his Steamrunner as in his Assault Cruiser while doing more damage. Thanks to HE1, AuxSiF2 RSP, AtPO and the fact that dead enemies don't do any damage ;-)

As a Beamboat you MUST use 2xEngie boffslots to mitigate the drain or use an AuxtB build or use some Doffs to reduce the cooldown on Emergency powers. Thats a lot of ressources and still you are doing less damage than with cannons and turrets. Even 8 Beams (thanks to the drain) are doing less damage than 4 cannons.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,528
# 32
01-24-2013, 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Setup:
6 disruptor beam arrays
1 romulan experimental beam array
1 borg cutting beam

Target: 9.5km distant

With no attempts to mitigate power drain, average damage with the disruptors was 327.

With plasmonic leech (+2.2 power per hit, max +11) and chained Emergency Power To Weapons 1 (+22 power), average damage with the disruptors was 348.

With plasmonic leech, chained EPTW1, and 4 plasma manifolds (+14 power), average damage with the disruptors was 387.

That should be a total of +47 to weapon power.

However,
With nadion inversion, average damage with the disruptors was 487.

Just to recap, using leech and EPTW chain gained me 6% actual damage, while using every slot available for power consoles got me 18%. Turning off power drain got me 48% more damage.

Problem with beam arrays: power drain is insane and making every sensible effort to mitigate it barely helps.

Strange, with the same distance I do 500 damage per shot unbuffed and up to 900 buffed (without my APB in place, then more ). And thats with 8 BA. Making quite the damage
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 665
# 33
01-24-2013, 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
As a Beamboat you MUST use 2xEngie boffslots to mitigate the drain or use an AuxtB build or use some Doffs to reduce the cooldown on Emergency powers. Thats a lot of ressources and still you are doing less damage than with cannons and turrets. Even 8 Beams (thanks to the drain) are doing less damage than 4 cannons.
Again, you're doing it wrong. Beams are not supposed to match the damage output of cannons. Spend some skill points in Threat Control, and don't waste your BOFF abilities trying to increase your beam damage so much. 125 weapon power (or as close as you can get without BOFF or console slots) is all you need. Spend the BOFF slots on heals and damage mitigation.

You'll be much more valuable to a team that way.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,283
# 34
01-24-2013, 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
If you think escorts can "tank/evade on par with cruisers", you're sadly mistaking. First off, cruisers don't evade, they're slow lumbering boats. They get more hull points, more engineering stations, and when flown by an engineer, get innate heals and even greater healing bonuses. Cruisers can, and always will, out-heal an escort. They will ALWAYS be capable of absorbing more damage than an escort.

The only thing an escort can do is kill its target before its target kills the escort. We escort pilots have become quite good at that, which is why many players seem to be under the incredibly wrong assumption that escorts can tank.
I have flown nearly every ship in the game. Escorts tank just fine it is only healing that they can at times run out of.

Infact thanks to their higher avoidance capabilities combined with the ability to have the same exact amount of mitigation escorts make more efficient and superior tanks. The only reason they are not used as main tanks is simply that their is no need for a tank in this game. That and most people being bad at math helps too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
Again, you're doing it wrong. Beams are not supposed to match the damage output of cannons. Spend some skill points in Threat Control, and don't waste your BOFF abilities trying to increase your beam damage so much. 125 weapon power (or as close as you can get without BOFF or console slots) is all you need. Spend the BOFF slots on heals and damage mitigation.

You'll be much more valuable to a team that way.
No, you will be more valuable by getting in a ship that does real DPS and save me a minute of time when I'm in your group.

Let me say this one last time. I do not need anyone to tank for me, or to heal for me in ESTFs.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,342
# 35
01-24-2013, 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
Doing a straight math comparison,
Excellent. I am all for numbers and good points in a debate.

Quote:
[...]
DHC: 45 degree arc, 384 base damage, 256 base DPS
Beam array: 250 degree arc, 220 base damage, 176 base DPS

Beam arrays get almost 600% the firing arc of DHCs, but only take a 43% decrease in base damage. Or, flipped another way, DHCs do approximately 170% as much damage as beam arrays, but take a 82% decrease in their firing arc.
[...]
According to the math above, beams should do much less damage than they currently do, or cannons should do a whole lot more. It balances out, though, because a cruiser can consistently keep broadsiding targets with their beams, while an escort has to face their target and keep one single shield facing subject to almost all the incoming fire. Cruisers can rotate from one side to the other, turn to fire torpedos, etc.
So you are saying that 270 dgrees firing arc vs 45 degrees firing arc should result in firing the beams about 6 times more often than the cannons?

You don't seriously believe that, do you?

Let us take a ship like my BortasQu. It has a 5.5 degrees turn rate, which is, well, not the fastest you can get in this game. So wouldn't we expect a low firing arc (45 degrees) weapon to have little applicability, at least in PvP? Unfortunately, that is not the case, and only very partially due to subspace snare.

The facts are, the DHC even on that slow-turning ship fire most of the time. How, you ask? Well, because you can hit reverse and evasive, immobilize your target with tractor beams or gravity wells, Eject Warp Plasma, etc., and then just unload the cannons with all their might.

So we are not comparing, as the firing arc would indicate, beams firing six times as much as DHC's at a given target. No, we are more like comparing beam broadsides firing 20% more, maybe 25%. And while the beams do fire, their dps is low enough that many escorts can just tank it away, but they cannot do that with the DPS of even white quality Mk XII DHC's plus turrets.

I have tested both 6 beams/2 torps (more beams actually diminish your damage because of the energy drain) and 4 DHC's/4 turrets on my tactical Bortasqu'. Guess who wins by far. And that in such a slow-turning ship.

Sure, a certain advantage is desireable for their smaller firing arc. But not as much as they give.

And on top of that, which really makes the issue blatantly obvious, there is no way to increase the damage output of multiple beams vs a single target in the same way as CRF does it for cannons. So not only do they have a much lower base, they also don't get any significant buffs for it, when compared to cannons.

A simple way to fix this would be to increase energy drain of DHC's and turrets, or giving a broadside damage increasing power like CRF to beams, or both. But that are just two ideas.

I have a proposal for you:

Get the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought. It is an awesome tactical carrier ship. Try to make it work with 6 or even 7 beams, then try to make it work with 4DHCs/3turrets. You'll immediately see that there is a problem.
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Last edited by sophlogimo; 01-24-2013 at 06:33 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,241
# 36
01-24-2013, 07:06 AM
One of the main issues i already see from this thread is the use of so many beam arrays. Also we are not made aware of what his weapon power settings are, and even with a boost to wp of +48, that would increase the dmg to one beam array by a factor of 48% for one shot. And another issue is being at almost a full 10km from your target, all energy weapons suffer dmg reduction at long distances from targets. While a beam array suffers the least from long distance shooting, it still suffers none the less just like a cannon does. Also running 6-8 beam arrays broadside does sound effective but without a good hull punch like from a torpedo can tend to hurt your overall effectiveness. My favorite setup for cruisers in pve is 1 torpedo front & aft, 2 dual & 1 single beam arrays forward, with 3 single beam arrays aft. This gives a good broad range of effectiveness, maintaining 5 beam and a torp forward, 4 beams broadside, 3 beams aft and a torp. You can of course substitute one of any beam arrays or even a torpedo for the cutting beam, especially since they raised its dmg and dps rates recently. These are just what my prefered cruiser build is like and does quite well against single or multiple enemies. While you may think it is lacking in dps, it may seem that way in numbers compared to all beams, but don't let statistics of numbers always be your guide. Also for those needed hard hits when turning to deliver a torpedo strike to a single enemy, don't forget about beam overload as it is a heavy drain on wp, but delivers a massive dmg punch which is great for a shield opener so you can deliver that torpedo to an exposed hull.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 665
# 37
01-24-2013, 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Excellent. I am all for numbers and good points in a debate.



So you are saying that 270 dgrees firing arc vs 45 degrees firing arc should result in firing the beams about 6 times more often than the cannons?

You don't seriously believe that, do you?

Let us take a ship like my BortasQu. It has a 5.5 degrees turn rate, which is, well, not the fastest you can get in this game. So wouldn't we expect a low firing arc (45 degrees) weapon to have little applicability, at least in PvP? Unfortunately, that is not the case, and only very partially due to subspace snare.

The facts are, the DHC even on that slow-turning ship fire most of the time. How, you ask? Well, because you can hit reverse and evasive, immobilize your target with tractor beams or gravity wells, Eject Warp Plasma, etc., and then just unload the cannons with all their might.

So we are not comparing, as the firing arc would indicate, beams firing six times as much as DHC's at a given target. No, we are more like comparing beam broadsides firing 20% more, maybe 25%. And while the beams do fire, their dps is low enough that many escorts can just tank it away, but they cannot do that with the DPS of even white quality Mk XII DHC's plus turrets.

I have tested both 6 beams/2 torps (more beams actually diminish your damage because of the energy drain) and 4 DHC's/4 turrets on my tactical Bortasqu'. Guess who wins by far. And that in such a slow-turning ship.

Sure, a certain advantage is desireable for their smaller firing arc. But not as much as they give.

And on top of that, which really makes the issue blatantly obvious, there is no way to increase the damage output of multiple beams vs a single target in the same way as CRF does it for cannons. So not only do they have a much lower base, they also don't get any significant buffs for it, when compared to cannons.

A simple way to fix this would be to increase energy drain of DHC's and turrets, or giving a broadside damage increasing power like CRF to beams, or both. But that are just two ideas.

I have a proposal for you:

Get the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought. It is an awesome tactical carrier ship. Try to make it work with 6 or even 7 beams, then try to make it work with 4DHCs/3turrets. You'll immediately see that there is a problem.
I love how you take my exact math, and then promptly focus on only a single aspect while supporting your own argument with opinion, conjecture, and not a single bit of hard evidence. In fact, I remember quite thoroughly trouncing you in your "cruisers should be godmode" thread.

(LOL, triforce of rolling eyes.)

Beams serve a very specific purpose in the game. They are meant to provide a medium damage, wide firing angle weapon for slower moving ships to use against fast moving targets. Those same slow moving ships are meant to absorb large amounts of incoming fire. Combine beam fire at will, threat control, and a small battery of heals, and you get a very effective tank that can keep enemies focused on yourself rather than your teammates. This makes beams very effective on the ship they were meant for.

If you want to do large amounts of DPS, fly any ship with medium-to-high turnrate and load DHCs on it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 665
# 38
01-24-2013, 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowwraith77 View Post
One of the main issues i already see from this thread is the use of so many beam arrays. Also we are not made aware of what his weapon power settings are, and even with a boost to wp of +48, that would increase the dmg to one beam array by a factor of 48% for one shot. And another issue is being at almost a full 10km from your target, all energy weapons suffer dmg reduction at long distances from targets. While a beam array suffers the least from long distance shooting, it still suffers none the less just like a cannon does. Also running 6-8 beam arrays broadside does sound effective but without a good hull punch like from a torpedo can tend to hurt your overall effectiveness. My favorite setup for cruisers in pve is 1 torpedo front & aft, 2 dual & 1 single beam arrays forward, with 3 single beam arrays aft. This gives a good broad range of effectiveness, maintaining 5 beam and a torp forward, 4 beams broadside, 3 beams aft and a torp. You can of course substitute one of any beam arrays or even a torpedo for the cutting beam, especially since they raised its dmg and dps rates recently. These are just what my prefered cruiser build is like and does quite well against single or multiple enemies. While you may think it is lacking in dps, it may seem that way in numbers compared to all beams, but don't let statistics of numbers always be your guide. Also for those needed hard hits when turning to deliver a torpedo strike to a single enemy, don't forget about beam overload as it is a heavy drain on wp, but delivers a massive dmg punch which is great for a shield opener so you can deliver that torpedo to an exposed hull.
FINALLY someone who knows what they're talking about.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 39
01-24-2013, 07:18 AM
There is a easy solution: NERF EVERYTHING!!

Double the energy drain of cannons! Reduce their firing rate! Put and end to the DPS fest that the game has become.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,572
# 40
01-24-2013, 07:27 AM
I find it curious that some people do not think they should balance out in the end. They're lumping too many variables into that equation, imho.

Take an Escort. Put DHCs/Turrets on it. No-brainer, right?
Take an Escort. Put Arrays on it. What? No, you put the Arrays on a Cruiser. Not an Escort.

Put them on an Escort. Put them on the same Escort that you put the DHCs/Turrets on.

Putting them on a Cruiser introduces too many other variables. It's like saying DHCs/Turrets are the same on a Bug as they are on a Vo'quv.

So run the Arrays on the same Escort as you're running the DHCs/Turrets.

So now you're down to comparing the following, eh?
45 Arc vs. 250 Arc (time on target)
45 Arc vs. 250 Arc (ability to move vs. sit, higher defense)

Tada, the two most oft cited explanations for the higher damage of the DHCs/Turrets over Arrays. Course, that's higher DPV - not DPS. Higher DPV while the target's in that Arc and the ship's able to sit there without getting pounded. The Arrays should have lower DPV - since they do not present the issues of time on target and the concerns for defense from sitting there. That little dance of keeping the guns on target, eh?

Okay, so again - it should be pretty obvious here...
+DMG (-time on target) + DMG (-defense) vs -DMG (+time on target) -DMG (+defense)

Balanced, you're overall DPS on the Escort whether you're using DHCs/Turrets or Arrays should be equal...no? If the reason that the DHCs/Turrets do more DPV is because of X and Y and the reason the Arrays do less DPV is also because of X and Y... then if you eliminate everything but X and Y, shouldn't the end DPS be the same?

Are they balanced there? Simple as that. If not, then it needs to be addressed.

Once you move those Arrays on to a Cruiser from the Escort, well - you're looking at moving your DHCs/Turrets from that Bug to a Vo'quv. All sorts of other things start to come into play, no?

But wait you say...you were bored and did that test. Both the DPV and DPS of the cannons was higher. I'd wager that's because of the content. X and Y aren't as big a factor now as they may have once been. It's easier to stay on target. The "balance" has been lost due to the content. So it would need a balance pass again...

Yet, all of this is moot - no? It completely ignores healing. Even if the overall DPS is the same, the way it works against healing is going to be different. It's easier to heal sustained DPS than burst DPS. But how much do NPCs heal in general, eh? So maybe you could fudge some balance there. It will still be a world of difference in PvP, no?

So does that mean that NPCs need to be more like PCs? PvE needs to be more like PvP? NPCs should have and use more of the abilities players have? Then you can see about trying to balance different weapons - different heals - different abilities, etc, etc, etc?

Maybe... but it's not going to happen.

So like I said, it's moot. There's not going to be any balance that folks are looking for... it's not as simple as X and Y. There are countless variables involved.

In PvE, there's very little where it matters. People thinking an ESTF has to be completed in under 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes is entirely on the people thinking that...it's not an actual requirement. Most folks are massively overgeared for the majority of PvE content in the game. Sure, the Escort guy might put out a bunch more DPS than the Cruiser guy - but in the end, is the Cruiser guy putting out enough DPS to get it done...in the "required" time - not the "player thinks a certain time is required"...? If not, that Cruiser guy needs some help with their build. It's not a case they should be doing something else - they just need help with their build - and the person that wants to relegate them to doing something else, needs to look at actual requirements for the content.

In PvP...well...there are so many things wrong with PvP, this is hardly at the top of the list, eh?
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