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Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 350
# 21
01-26-2013, 11:38 PM
Anyone who thinks Sci Ships are gimped has simply never flown with a good science pilot in PvP. The first thing I do in any Arena PuG is look to see if I have a good Sci on my team. Why? Because it's the difference between win or lose.

Science ships are meant to play a complementary role to the DPS ships. They can also be made to be devastating with the right build. The problem is, the builds that make a sci ship devastating are different than the builds that make an escort dish out damage.

Science CAPTAINS already possess CAPTAIN skills that are major forces in PvP. Subnucleonic Beam, Sensor Scan and Scattering Field are amazing when used correctly. Subsystem targeting also is incredible when timed well.

If you are trying to use a tactical ship type of load out, you aren't going to be able to DPS effectively AND get the most out of your science abilities. If you use a more creative load out and build you can make science ships some of the most dangerous and feared ships in the game.

THIS SHIP:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...&postcount=170

One of my favorite PvP teammates flies a Wells set up with this build and trust me, there is no one you would rather have on your team. It should be clear from looking at the build, but just to make sure: DPS on this builds comes from kinetic damage. No need to gimp aux power when you aren't relying on beams and cannons to dish it out.

Are there skills that could use a balance pass? Of course there are. All three professions have skills in need of a balance pass. I personally agree Tachyon Beam (for example) could be a bit more nasty without causing problems. That said, with an Aux Battery, the DOFF that adds the turn rate debuff, and a heavy Aux Power setting ... Tachyon Beam = Dead Escort. Of course that does assume you time it correctly so the Escort Captain on your TEAM can unload his CRF right as you use it. Stupid escort getting away from your Gravity Well by using APO? Did you save your Subnuc til AFTER he popped APO?

Teamwork and timing ... what a concept ... LOL.

So in summary:

Science Captain in Science Ship ... not your job to dish out the damage. Your job is to torment, debuff and otherwise gimp the target so the DPS ships can dish it out better.

Want to fly a science ship and use sparkly powers while still dishing it out? Put a Tactical Captain in the chair.

Want to deal nasty DPS with your Science Captain? Fly an escort.

Each ship has a role to play. It's kind of frustrating to keep seeing these threads asking to devs to make cruiser and sci ships able to dish it out, and then go into a PvP match or Elite STF and BE DISHING IT OUT in an escort only to not get heal support from the cruiser and not get CC and debuff support from the sci and then ... you know this part ... get blown to bits.

This post is not meant to be a trash on anyone else or their ability to play the game. Just to point out that if you actually try to do with your ship what it was designed for, you will find they are good at doing it. If you don't enjoy the role of your profession and ship, play a different profession and/or ship. You will find you might actually enjoy it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 246
# 22
01-27-2013, 05:14 AM
This above person is the only person that seems to understand what I am talking about. Have you fought a sci cap in a sci ship in pvp? That is some heavy duty fighting, I'm not talking about you're grandma's sci cap but a good capt with good skills.

Thank you glass, for helping me to prove my point.

In the right hands sci ships are extremely extremely dangerous they are the only ships that I simply see on the battlefield and come nose to nose with, shake hands and will walk away from. Everyone else and I mean everyone else would be dead before they even saw me.

I don't even play around with sci ships. If I hit them with befaw and defuff them you better kill them asap or we're all in trouble. They are not going to buff these guys skills because just a little bit of a buff will have a million threads yelling about them being op.

Last edited by lasonio; 01-27-2013 at 05:19 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 22
# 23
01-27-2013, 06:32 AM
After reading these post I would like to offer some insight from a primary Science toon. I have 2 toons 1 borg and 1 joined trill.

The joined trill flies a vesta with all 3 console mods and the kitty carrier occasionally and the borg flies a tholian recluse carrier. Now while these ships are all special either lock box or Zen store they are hard hitting in their own right. I'll explain.

In my opinion a science officer in a science ship is a beast. No matter what that ship is whether it is a carrier, vesta nebula, recon. etc The reason for this is NOT because of it's beams or single cannon. It is the culmination of the combination of both inherant and trained bridge officer abilities of the science officer and appropriate boffs. For example lets take a typical fight. 1vs1 pve and lets see how much I can screw that mob up.

Sensor Analysis, sensor scan, subtargeting, gravity well, energy siphon, subnucleonic beam, tachyon beam and tractor beam just to name a few that I use on a regular basis.

and this is even before I use my torps and the target is now like a baby. - then I hit him with my torps and he will be pretty much dead. Oh I forgot Im a carrier vesta or atrox or recluse doesn't matter fighters are on their way to finish the target off.

The point is science ships have a multitude of abilities that make up the total dps of the ship Not just it's phasers.

Personally Im primarily a carrier pilot and prefer the playstyle. My ship is a weapon that stays in the 8-10km range of the target and and I use debuffs and crowd crontrol so the dps guys can do their job. Depending on the ship and fighter I'll launch them appropriately. I use my beams for 1 purpose only and that is to disable subsystems. along with this I can hull heal, shield heal and support my group as necessary.


typical loadout tholian carrier

forward 2 phased beam array( I will drop one in favor of omega plasma torp)
tholian torp

rear 1 phased tetryon - 1 cutting beam 1 1 tri-cobolt mine launcher.

This may not be perfect but to your liking but it is what works for me. Perhaps you should look at alternatives.

Typical Vesta Load out

forward
1 aux dhc, 1 beam array 1 torp launcher

rear
2 beam array's 1 cutting beam


Just 1 final note. My bridge officers loadout (skills) do not change from ship to ship. Im very happy with the performance of my officer

Just my 2 cents :-)
Livia Drusilla - Level 50 Engineer

Playing STO since Beta

Leader of S-P-Q-R
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 24
01-27-2013, 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bagabum View Post
Sensor Analysis, sensor scan, subtargeting, gravity well, energy siphon, subnucleonic beam, tachyon beam and tractor beam just to name a few that I use on a regular basis.
Sensor Analysis doesn't have time to stack on anything smaller than a gate, tac cube, or dreadnought.

Sensor Scan has a 2 minute CD, so it won't help you with the next enemy.

Subsystem Targeting also has a long CD, as well as a limited chance of doing anything worthwhile.

Gravity Well is a good power, and it is AoE, but the long CD is painful.

Energy Siphon is an awfully small drain, around 20 points of power, and is single target with a minute long CD. The main effect is the buff to your own power levels, which is nice to have, but doesn't really give you all the power you need.

Subnucleonic Beam is single target with a 2 minute CD, and only limits the abilities a target can use, and given how few abilities targets use, it's only worth hitting on those rare occasions when one of them uses EPtS.

Tachyon Beam, as discussed earlier in this thread, has a very minimal effect, and it's single target.

Tractor Beam is just a waste of time except possibly if you have the shield drain doff for it. Its damage is minimal, so its only notable effect is a single target hold, and a single target hold is just pointless, there are always either multiple targets that need to be held or no targets that need to be held (sole exception: Negh'vars in CSN, but not in CSE).

That's the problem, it all sounds great on paper, but when you get 30 seconds into combat you start realizing that everything you were relying on is on CD and your job isn't done yet, and you're accomplishing very little while you wait.

And to the people who think sci ships are great in PvP and nothing else should matter, take a look around. PvP is at best a footnote in this game, all of the game progression is based on PvE, and for PvE sci is weak. Maybe we do need to have separate balances for PvE and PvP, but we already have that on some weapon procs, so it shouldn't be too hard to do.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 350
# 25
01-27-2013, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
Sensor Analysis doesn't have time to stack on anything smaller than a gate, tac cube, or dreadnought.

Sensor Scan has a 2 minute CD, so it won't help you with the next enemy.

Subsystem Targeting also has a long CD, as well as a limited chance of doing anything worthwhile.

Gravity Well is a good power, and it is AoE, but the long CD is painful.

Energy Siphon is an awfully small drain, around 20 points of power, and is single target with a minute long CD. The main effect is the buff to your own power levels, which is nice to have, but doesn't really give you all the power you need.

Subnucleonic Beam is single target with a 2 minute CD, and only limits the abilities a target can use, and given how few abilities targets use, it's only worth hitting on those rare occasions when one of them uses EPtS.

Tachyon Beam, as discussed earlier in this thread, has a very minimal effect, and it's single target.

Tractor Beam is just a waste of time except possibly if you have the shield drain doff for it. Its damage is minimal, so its only notable effect is a single target hold, and a single target hold is just pointless, there are always either multiple targets that need to be held or no targets that need to be held (sole exception: Negh'vars in CSN, but not in CSE).

That's the problem, it all sounds great on paper, but when you get 30 seconds into combat you start realizing that everything you were relying on is on CD and your job isn't done yet, and you're accomplishing very little while you wait.

And to the people who think sci ships are great in PvP and nothing else should matter, take a look around. PvP is at best a footnote in this game, all of the game progression is based on PvE, and for PvE sci is weak. Maybe we do need to have separate balances for PvE and PvP, but we already have that on some weapon procs, so it shouldn't be too hard to do.
So, 7 different powers listed there. Longest Cooldown: 2 minutes without Doffs. So you can use one of these science powers once every fifteen seconds. Sounds pretty good to me.

As to PvP vs PvE. If you are actually complaining that you don;t have enough power for PvE, wow ... just wow. There is absolutely ZERO PvE content that requires anything beyond an RA Ship with White MK X gear to complete.

Maybe I am being a snob here, but PvE is so ROFL easy that to even consider it in this argument is ... honestly I don't have a word for what I am thinking that wouldn't get screened. The reason you aren't noticing how uber your science powers are in PvP is because they are based on debuffing your enemy and NPCs don't use buffs barely at all. Maybe if PvE content was scaled up to a reasonable level of difficulty, you would notice how good sci powers actually are. Until then, you really can't even make arguments about balancing ships unless you consider PvP, because that would be the only way to compare them.

That said, I almost always take first place in gorn minefield or SB24 in my escort. The one person who knocks me down to second place regularly: the Wells Captain I mentioned in the earlier post.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,072
# 26
01-27-2013, 03:34 PM
I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, the number of threads I've felt compelled to post the following point... but, whatever.

No ship in this game is designed to play second fiddle to any other type of ship. Why? Because most of this game is played solo by most of its players. Every ship faces the same challenges over the course of the game, and has to be equally capable of defeating them.

That is how the game was designed.

Science ships seem like they exist to mess up enemies for the benefit of others these days, but that's only because their abilities have been ground so hard into the dirt that their noses barely poke above ground. When this game launched, science ships fought as hard as any other type of ship; their powers were their weapons, and they cracked heads with them.

Sure, it is still possible to build a good science ship; but it is way harder than it is to build a good anything else. That alone tells us that science ships need a little dev time.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 350
# 27
01-28-2013, 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnmanx View Post
I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, the number of threads I've felt compelled to post the following point... but, whatever.

No ship in this game is designed to play second fiddle to any other type of ship. Why? Because most of this game is played solo by most of its players. Every ship faces the same challenges over the course of the game, and has to be equally capable of defeating them.

That is how the game was designed.

Science ships seem like they exist to mess up enemies for the benefit of others these days, but that's only because their abilities have been ground so hard into the dirt that their noses barely poke above ground. When this game launched, science ships fought as hard as any other type of ship; their powers were their weapons, and they cracked heads with them.

Sure, it is still possible to build a good science ship; but it is way harder than it is to build a good anything else. That alone tells us that science ships need a little dev time.
I can complete any PvE mission just as easily and quickly in my Sci Ship with Sci Captain, Tac Ship with Tac Captain, Eng Ship with Eng Captain. I can complete those same PvE missions with my Tac Captain in a Mirror Deep Space (with is measly two tac consoles) only ever so slightly less quickly than in my Heavy Escort carrier with Ultra Rare Scorpion Fighters.

I stand by my view that if you are struggling to do PvE in a Sci Ship it's because you are not building it correctly for a Sci Ship. Complaining because a Sci Ship doesn't DPS like an escort is equivalent to complaining that I can't run Grav Well 3 on an escort.

I would be willing to bet that if you post your sci ship build in this thread, you could actually get some good advice on how to make it more effective. I already linked you to a post that has a build that would work for any sci ship and make you hit harder than the doomsday device. It seems to me that you don't actually want to play a sci ship. You might actually find that if you set up a good SciScort you will enjoy it!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 802
# 28
01-28-2013, 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassguitar View Post
I stand by my view that if you are struggling to do PvE in a Sci Ship it's because you are not building it correctly for a Sci Ship. Complaining because a Sci Ship doesn't DPS like an escort is equivalent to complaining that I can't run Grav Well 3 on an escort.
I am curius glassguitar. I am not entirly cirtain what your position is hear with regards to the topic. Do you feel that science ships are fine as they are?

I fly escorts and science ships both with my science captain. In both PVP and PVE. I top leader boards consistantly in either ship type and I flatter myself that I am not bad.

However my feeling is that I have had to expend a grate deal more of my time and resources to make my science ships viable then I have had to with escorts. As has been pointed out white gear, no special consoles and no doffs makes little differance to how well some one that knows what they are doing, can do in an escort.

But I have found the right doff combinations to be essential to competative science ship builds, which need all the cool down reduction they can get.

Bare in mind i mean competative with competant PVPers, not your avrage lost soul in kar'rat.

My position is not that science ships can not be competative, and not that they neciserily need a dps boost. It is simply that they should be able to be science ships with no more resource investment then an escort needs to be an escort, or that a cruiser needs to be a cruiser.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 246
# 29
01-28-2013, 04:40 AM
The way it works is this, if you buff one ship you will ultimately have to buff them all since in the end their are way more tac's in this game then both sci and eng combined.

Sci ships do not fight like escorts, no ship fights like an escort only escorts since they can easily max out their abilities with a simple 125/50/25/25 set up. No Other ship can do that so easily.

No matter how you look at it this argument is doomed to run around in an endless circle of "If you do this you have to do this."

If one ship gets buffed then they will all have to be buffed to keep the backlash down and we are right back where we started. I personally don't understand how people are struggling in PVE anyhow, the only thing that the npc's have going for them is mass numbers beyond that even on the elite setting which I play on all day every day is no different then childs play. So you need things like pvp for you to actually figure out if your build is good or not since the npc's are DESIGNED TO LOSE TO YOU.

They will not be giving sci ships or their skills a boost since in PVP they are already monsters. in 1vs1 and 2 vs 1 they can hold their own. in pve they may seem weak but thats because the settings of the computers see different values then what we see and understand. I have died soooo much to sci's in pvp that i just don't deal with them and in battles I'm sure in team functions they are just as effective. I don't know I keep my eyes on my enemies so I don't pay attention. But I know in pvp sci ships are sooooo good that even I a die hard scortie will switch to one just to have the shoe on the other foot.

I don't mind if sci skills get a boost in PVE as long as EVERYONE GET"S A BOOST in pve not just one sect. If not then the argument will always end with. "Get a Vesta."

I agree with Glass, it's not so muh that the dev's need to help the sci's out so much as the scis have to help themselves. Their is more info out their on tacs because their are more tacs posting and placing builds then any other sect. Out of 20-30 tac skills only about 7-8 are actually used and most are used in doubles so prolly dropping that to 5-6 skills and you don't see us complaining. Out of ALL the Tac skills I use TT, TS, BeFaw, Omega, and Beta. and that is it. 5 skills out of 30 something skills, just five and one, Omega hardly get's used, so i should only count 4. So in the end you have to fine tune your skills to meet your needs and that's it. Since with 4 skills of my class I am considered Elite then I'm not sure what is keeping you guys from doing the same. Lol... wow... i use only 4 skills... that is crazy.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 30
01-28-2013, 05:48 AM
I think one of the main problems is that the only way you win MOST (there's a few exceptions since fleet missions came in) PvE missions is you must destroy the enemy NPCs. Sci skills are great for crowd control, area denial etc but pitifully low on damage.

Now I can only speak for elite STFs as I mainly run them but there is no function a science ship can do that an escort could not have done better except maybe tanking a cube.

I will agree that sci skills are great in PvP but in PvE where enemies have more than 10 times the health and shields of PvP ships, science skill feel like they don't hold their own and that's even with max points in the science skills and then using 3 console to buff it even further.
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