Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,531
# 161
03-09-2013, 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The fix is working its way thru QA. Due to the number of powers that were potentially affected (this was a LOT bigger than just Fire At Will) there's a high probability that further attention will need to be given before it can arrive on Tribble.

I'd estimate another 2 weeks or so, but that's just a shot in the dark.
I'd have to say I'd be lying if I wasn't just a tad curious as to just how bad what ever was effecting FAW really was.. But I won't trouble you for the details, as I doubt most of them even relate to anything to terribly specific right? More then likely back end code issues or something would be my guess..

I hope......

Though it would be nice if what ever was causing FAW's issues was related to the Crit bug... and that getting squashed at the same time might be nice.. but that's probably wishful thinking.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,619
# 162
03-10-2013, 12:03 AM
If the crit thing you're talking about is the chain crit... I think that's pretty deep.

I'm still curious about this aspect though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Suffice it to say, Enhancements from weapons (like [Acc] mods, but also includes [Dmg], [CrtD], etc, as well as Procs) aren't being properly inherited by all powers in all circumstances. I'm hesitant to post more details than that until we have a working fix, which is unlikely to happen internally until next week at the earliest.
All powers in all circumstances? So that's not just FAW. TS? THY? BO? CRF? CSV? Subsystem Targeting on Science Vessels? Beam Target Subsystems? DPA? DPB? Just those or does it somehow even go beyond that?

[Acc][CrtD][CrtH][Dmg]...Procs? So we're talking Phaser, Disruptor, Plasma, Tetryon, Polaron...what about Omega Weapon Amplifiier? Omega Graviton Amplifier? Romulan Threat Scaling Consoles [Pla]...? KDF Elite Disruptors SDR? Sensor Targeting Assault? This list goes on for a bit...

...like I asked earlier in the thread, this actually sounds kind of ominous. But that depends on which way it might be broken, eh?


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 273
# 163
03-10-2013, 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The fix is working its way thru QA. Due to the number of powers that were potentially affected (this was a LOT bigger than just Fire At Will) there's a high probability that further attention will need to be given before it can arrive on Tribble.

I'd estimate another 2 weeks or so, but that's just a shot in the dark.
After hearing Captain Geko's explanation of the root cause of this issue, I was thinking there was a potential to effect quite a lot of powers where modifiers weren't being applied.

When the fix is released please can we receive a list of all the effected powers? Some of us have spent quite a lot of time testing powers, weapons and consoles to perfect builds. And this fix may result in rethinking our builds.

Is the problem limited to weapon modifiers such as Accuracy, or does it also effect skill point from consoles?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,619
# 164
03-10-2013, 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneandonlyrecce View Post
Is the problem limited to weapon modifiers such as Accuracy, or does it also effect skill point from consoles?
Could you imagine if Tac Consoles actually added a % instead of a flat number to the base damage?


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 711
# 165
03-10-2013, 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
The fix is working its way thru QA. Due to the number of powers that were potentially affected (this was a LOT bigger than just Fire At Will) there's a high probability that further attention will need to be given before it can arrive on Tribble
Thanks for the update. This sounds like good news.

Maybe once this eventually goes to Tribble, you could tell us with some more details about what is affected and how? I'd love to hear more so that we can properly test it.
http://hilbertguide.com

Last edited by mancom; 03-10-2013 at 12:47 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,161
# 166
03-10-2013, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Could you imagine if Tac Consoles actually added a % instead of a flat number to the base damage?
They do add a %.

A % of the base damage of the weapon which ends up being a flat number true, but it is still a %.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,377
# 167
03-10-2013, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Could you imagine if Tac Consoles actually added a % instead of a flat number to the base damage?
they do work off percent, but it works off the weapon's base damage, before anything else is added...at least, that's how it was explained to me

EDIT: blah, ninja'd
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwecaptainsmirk View Post
*reassuringly strokes your hair*
Hush now, you will be back kicking Neelix and killing those nasty Vaadwaur soon enough... hush child.
*pat pat on your head*
epic smirk is epic
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 273
# 168
03-10-2013, 01:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneandonlyrecce View Post
Is the problem limited to weapon modifiers such as Accuracy, or does it also effect skill point from consoles?
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Could you imagine if Tac Consoles actually added a % instead of a flat number to the base damage?
The maths behind STO is a puzzle at times.
And we poke and prod and probe to see if we can work it out.

I was thinking more in terms of Sci consoles rather than Tac consoles.
From what I remember from Captain Gekos description, the problem occurs with "chained" effects and this is effectively resulting sort of loss of ownership. If FAW is modelled as a "chained" effect, could some AoE effects also be too? And that makes me think of Sci abilities.

It would be nice to know the internal mechanics of STO but I can also see the potential for a huge number of posts asking for justification of this or that.
But at the same time it would allow us to spot when something is right we when are testing changes to our build
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,619
# 169
03-10-2013, 03:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
They do add a %.

A % of the base damage of the weapon which ends up being a flat number true, but it is still a %.
When was the last time you looked at the tooltip? Course, could just be a tooltip thing - there are a few of those.

The Weapon Window numbers will vary form the Ship Status Window numbers.

Take your Tac consoles off. Add them one by one and look at the tooltip in the Ship Status Window. It's adding a flat number to the damage rather than a percentage of the number that was previously there.

Here's an example from one of my guys (had to find one with the fewest things that couldn't be account for - like just what does the +30 Weapon Training from Omega Weapon Training provide over the +25% from having 9 in Weapon Training, eh?):

I'll be using two Mk X common weapons for the example - a Beam Array and a Single Cannon. The base damage for the Array is 200. The base damage for the Cannon is 144. I'll be listing the damage from the Ship Status Window as well as from the Weapon Window for each. I'll use the following abbreviations to denote which is which:

SAD - Ship Status Window Array Damage
WAD - Weapon Window Array Damage
SCD - Ship Status Window Cannon Damage
WCD - Weapon Window Cannon Damage

The numbers will be pulled from the Sol System in orbit around ESD. I'll be adding three +26.2% Polaron consoles one at a time and recording the numbers. The numbers were generated at 117/100 (217% damage).

0 Consoles:
SAD - 202
WAD - 708
SCD - 145.4
WCD - 509.7

1 Console:
SAD - 228.2 (+26.2 (not +26.2%, but rather - +26.2 as a flat bonus)
WAD - 769.7 (+61.7)
SCD - 164.3 (+18.9)
WCD - 554.2 (+44.5)

2 Consoles:
SAD - 254.5 (+52.5)
WAD - 831.4 (+123.4)
SCD - 183.2 (+37.8)
WCD - 598.6 (+88.9)

3 Consoles:
SAD - 280.7 (+78.7)
WAD - 893.2 (+185.2)
SCD - 202.1 (+56.7)
WCD - 643.1 (+133.4)

First thing of note, was that right off the back +1% was added to the Ship Status Window damage. I noticed this on various toons with various skill builds, so I'm not sure where that's coming from - there was nothing common about all six toons that would explain it other than them being in orbit, eh?

Second of all, would be that if it was adding +26.2% to the base per console - then it should have looked like the following for the Ship Status Window:

Array 52.4: 200(0), 252.4(1), 304.8(2), 357.2(3)
Cannon 37.7: 144(0), 181.7(1), 219.5(2), 257.2(3)

Yeah, we didn't get that.

So maybe the 52.4 and 37.7 were reflected in the Weapon Windows?

Nope, we don't get that either. I mean, seriously, the difference between with a console and without a console for the Cannon is +44.5. But keep in mind, that's the Weapon Window. The number in the Weapon Window is ~350% of the Ship Status Window. The Weapon Window is taking into account base damage 144, consoles (+26.2%), 9 Weapon Training (+25%), 9 Energy Weapons (+20%), 117/100 Power (+134%), etc, etc, etc.

It gets into questioning how the math is done at all, eh? The Array actually reflects a +26.2 (flat, not percentage) increase on the Ship Status Window. The Cannon doesn't even show that much.

Let's try to get from SAD to WAD without a console, eh?

202 (not sure where the 1% came from) to 708 (~350% of the 202).

200
202 (mysterious +1%)
252 (+25% Weapon Training)
292 (+20% Energy Weapons)
560 (+134% Weapon Power)

Okay, that wasn't it. Wasn't a case of adding the percentage of base from each. Perhaps there's an order where the percentages are added?

200
202 (mysterious +1%)
252.5 (+25% Weapon Training)
303 (+20% Energy Weapons)
709 (+134% Weapon Power)

Hey, that's close enough for government work, right? Here's a quick review:

Base = X
X * 1.01 = X2
X2 * 1.25 = X3
X3 * 1.2 = X4
X4 * 2.34 = X5
X5 = the number displayed in the Weapon Window tooltip

Let's add a +26.2% console into that mix, eh?

200
200 * 1.262 = 252.4
252.4 * 1.01 = 254.924
254.924 * 1.25 = 318.655
318.655 * 1.2 = 382.386
382.386 * 2.34 = 894.78324

Er...but 894 was not our 1 console number. It was 769.7...that's right, flat number instead of percentage, eh? (As an aside, that 894 number is pretty close to our 3 console number.)

200
200 + 26.2 = 226.2
226.2 * 1.01 = 228.462
228.462 * 1.25 = 285.5775
285.5775 * 1.2 = 342.693
342.693 * 2.34 = 801.9

Bah...still not our number, eh? Why did it work without the console but not with the console? How are we off by 32.2?

Let me try this:

200
200 * 1.01 = 202
202 * 1.25 = 252.5
252.5 * 1.2 = 303
303 + 26.2 = 329.2
329.2 * 2.34 = 770
770...vs...767... again, I'm going to say close enough for government work, eh? So the console is adding a flat bonus after the mysterious 1%, the +25% from Weapon Training, and the +20% from Energy Weapons has been added.

Does this work for 2 consoles? +52.4?

200
200 * 1.01 = 202
202 * 1.25 = 252.5
252.5 * 1.2 = 303
303 + 52.4 = 831.6
831.6 vs 831.4...tada. Yep, that's pretty much it then, eh?

As far as the tooltips go - explaining how we get from SAD to WAD...where the console is added in. The console is being added as a flat bonus (not % bonus) after skills but before Weapon Energy.

But wait...er...the Cannon. The Cannon was not getting the +26.2 flat bonus. It only got a +18.9 bonus.

Let's take a look at all three, eh? What the +26.2% should look like, what the +26.2 flat bonus would look like, and if the +18.9 flat bonus holds up going from SCD to WCD, eh?

144
144 * 1.01 = 145.44
145.44 * 1.25 = 181.8
181.8 * 1.2 = 218.16
218.16 * 1.262 = 272.31792
272.31792 * 2.34 = 644.2439328
644 != 554

144
144 * 1.01 = 145.44
145.44 * 1.25 = 181.8
181.8 * 1.2 = 218.16
218.16 + 26.2 = 244.36
244.36 * 2.34 = 571.8024
571 != 554

144
144 * 1.01 = 145.44
145.44 * 1.25 = 181.8
181.8 * 1.2 = 218.16
218.16 + 18.9 = 237.06
237.06 * 2.34 = 554.7204
554 = 554!

Is it just a case that the tooltips are off? Is it a case that in some way - DPS, certain number of shots, etc, etc, etc that +26.2% damage is actually being added?

Or is it actually working the way the math shows in this post?

I honestly don't know. For over a year I've thought that the console did add a % to base damage. It was only recently (like 2 days or so) where I stumbled upon this while trying to do a post...and...yeah... I honestly don't know.


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Arcadia, Benthan Assault Cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,161
# 170
03-10-2013, 03:57 AM
It goes off of DPV. I will use beam arrays as an example because they are easy to work with.

*Please note this is mostly from memory so exact values may be off
*edit addon, base is the value of a Mk 0 item which simply does not exist*

Base DPV of beam array = 100

These are added to that calculated as a % of it, all are additive.
- Consoles as listed
- Skill bonus .5
- Mark bonus .1
- Rarity bonus .025 per
- Dmg bonus .05 per

So let us say we have skill maxed (99.9 btw) mk 12 ultra rare 3 dmg mod beam array with say +50% from consoles cause that is easy math.

100 (base)
+49.5 (Skill (.999 *.5) * 100)
+120 (Mark 1.2 * 100)
+10 (Rarity)
+15 (Dmg Mod)
+50 (Console Mod)
-------------
344.5 Base DPV

That then gets multiplied by any multipliers. Let us say we have 100 weapon power (+100% damage) and an APA at 50%

344.5 (Base DPV)
* 2 (Power Mod)
* 1.5 (APA Mod)
-------------
1033.5 DPV for that beam

Now to get DPS it is simple, the beam array fires 4 times over a 5 second cycle.

1033.5 * (4/5) = 826.8

And yes that is how it does the math even in that order of operations. Special thanks to Queue who did most of the discovery.
STO has a diverse group of players with a wide range of expectations and playstyles. To that end the STO team should endeavor to create a variety of content with a diverse set of difficulty levels and challenges. Cake for everyone!

Last edited by bareel; 03-10-2013 at 03:59 AM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:44 PM.