Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 374
# 1 Sigh....Escorts...
01-21-2013, 06:10 AM
They're great and all....well, actually, too great. So great that when entering an Elite STF I am on my knees in front of my keyboard praying there is at least one.

I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.


So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?
More anything?
"MORE EVERYTHING!"
-Jerry Seinfeld on Star Trek Online Content

Foundry Works: Uncharted
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 2
01-21-2013, 06:37 AM
Oh if only... but to do so would be unbalanced apparently...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 3
01-21-2013, 06:44 AM
Escorts are fine. They do what they are supposed to.
The problem is Cryptic's mission design. Think about it.

Let me think of an example mission... hmm...

How about on the first part of a mission you have to break through a huge line of turrets.
You could destroy them, but you waste time doing so because there are so many.
A Cruiser could aggro and tank them, while Escorts and Science ships fly next to him and hurry through.
In the center clear of the turrets there is some priority target to be destroyed, quickly done by Escorts.
Some try to flee, a Science ship can hold them in place though with a gravity well!
Or well... you waste time again by having to break through the turret line yet again.

Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 454
# 4
01-21-2013, 06:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiloace View Post
They're great and all....well, actually, too great. So great that when entering an Elite STF I am on my knees in front of my keyboard praying there is at least one.

I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.


So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?

just yesterday I had one ISE with no tactical captain and no escort at all, and we did it with optional too.
STF do not require so much dps, and cruisers and science vessel can have enough dps... my wells has enough dps to clear alone 2 trasformers and a gate and taking care of one side probes in kithomer space elite... I need time, but 15 minutes are enough.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 5
01-21-2013, 06:59 AM
Two escorts go AP:A III + AP:O III + CSV II and blasts the way through the turrets. They can cycle the blasting so going through them is pretty fast. Cycled EPtS + HE/TSS from time to time gives them ability to tank damage from the turrets that survived. Third one goes straight through and with same combination (replace CSV II with CRF II) blasts the main target in no time. Some flee, but the first two escorts are already free and with atl least CRF and AP:A ready - blasting rest of targets.

Where is the need for sci and cruiser here?

You would need to force the players to use those ships special abilities. Like: this ship can be stopped only via GW/Tyken/Energy Siphon III. Or: this target can be destroyed only with DEM III. Or you need Aceton III to stop this uber cube spraying one-shooting balls of death. If it's optional and can be done with raw firepower - escorts will be alway better.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 896
# 6
01-21-2013, 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiloace View Post
They're great and all....well, actually, too great. So great that when entering an Elite STF I am on my knees in front of my keyboard praying there is at least one.

I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.


So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Oh if only... but to do so would be unbalanced apparently...
As a science main, my understanding, as gleamed from the forums, is that the "imbalance" isn't science powers per se, but one particular PvP combination:

MVAE + Tactical Captain buffs (AP-A, FoMM, GDF) + Aux battery + Lt. Cmdr Science Power = one hit kill (or close enough with cannon and torp skills tacked on) against opposition PvP escorts.

Said combination creates situations where a Tac, with little to no science skill, can pop a GW I that does more damage than a Sci, fully specced, tossing GW III. Most other science damage skills "suffer" the same way...

Looking at it, GW, Tractor Beam, TBR, PSW - all deal kinetic damage. Feedback pulse deals, IIRC (as I don't use it a lot) either a generic "energy" type or a reflection of what damage is being used. Same with CPB, but I think CPB is tachyon along with Tachyon beam - which accounts for, as far as I know, all the science damage-dealers. Of course, tachyon & kinetic are 100% affected by the tac captain buffs, since they share the damage type of existing weapons - the game just checks damage type, not source.

Problem identified. Cryptic's current solution is to reduce these damages to the point that they aren't a problem when combined with tac skills. Side effect is to reduce the ability for science ships to deal skill-based damage. To bring science damage levels "back" to the point they were pre-nerf, Cryptic has been releasing all sorts of "alternate" Science damages - carriers (pet DPS), Vesta-Aventine Lance, Temporal "reset" that saves science ship but not the remaining target(s), cannons on Vesta, etc.

Alternate solution - new damage type(s), for example, we create new damage classes "particle" and "graviton". Particle will be science's "energy" damage, Graviton "kinetic". Tachyon beam, CPB, feedback now issues particle damage, and GW / Tractor beam / TBR / PSW issue graviton damage. This way we don't blow the balance between anti-shield (energy) skills and anti-hull (kinetic) skills.

Obviously, outside of maybe slipping anti-graviton and anti-particle onto a couple of the "universal" armors, a couple of new anti-science armors are issued, so that a ship has to kit out for either anti-escort or anti-science duty - which sorta makes it harder to defend an escort (but cruisers may have enough consoles to slot both armor types), and can add a whole new dimension to PvP - if the "current optimal premade" is 2 Escorts (DPS) 2 Cruisers (healing) and a Science (disruption), if they all go in with "anti-weapons" defenses, the Sci will wipe the table, so a cruiser and escort would have to switch to anti-science (to live through science disruptions), but being anti-science opens them up to easier kills by the weapon-users, heck, the anti-science ships may actually feel pressure from the cruiser's "pressure DPS".
50: S'Leth/Eurthyr/S. Dareau/Ardrian/Krudge/Annlova Not: Jadja
Still at it. CBS "restrictions" fell by wayside with freebie Breen. Time to re-examine ENT and ToS at tier 5, repurpose the Connie into Sci and rebuild an Akira escort into the "NX". 6 "eras", spread evenly over all the classes...
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,686
# 7
01-21-2013, 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obertheromulan View Post
Escorts are fine. They do what they are supposed to.
The problem is Cryptic's mission design. Think about it.

Let me think of an example mission... hmm...

How about on the first part of a mission you have to break through a huge line of turrets.
You could destroy them, but you waste time doing so because there are so many.
A Cruiser could aggro and tank them, while Escorts and Science ships fly next to him and hurry through.
In the center clear of the turrets there is some priority target to be destroyed, quickly done by Escorts.
Some try to flee, a Science ship can hold them in place though with a gravity well!
Or well... you waste time again by having to break through the turret line yet again.
now THIS sounds like a fun foundry mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I find this line of replies sadly hilarious. We put a lot of work into the massive list of fixes/changes above, and ya'll are hung up on the ability to skip our content. =p
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 896
# 8
01-21-2013, 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obertheromulan View Post
Escorts are fine. They do what they are supposed to.
The problem is Cryptic's mission design. Think about it.

Let me think of an example mission... hmm...

How about on the first part of a mission you have to break through a huge line of turrets.
You could destroy them, but you waste time doing so because there are so many.
A Cruiser could aggro and tank them, while Escorts and Science ships fly next to him and hurry through.
In the center clear of the turrets there is some priority target to be destroyed, quickly done by Escorts.
Some try to flee, a Science ship can hold them in place though with a gravity well!
Or well... you waste time again by having to break through the turret line yet again.
It just hit me:

Okay, said turret wall could be gateway-esque in it's HPs, so that it takes a good 5 minutes of escort fire to blast a big enough hole, making the "tank me" approach more desirable...

But then again, so is the "huddle up and hit full impulse through the wall" tactic. How can we get the balance between 3 targets that need aggroing (CSV and BFaW I both randomly fire on only 3 targets), that do enough damage to make a bum rush fail but yet is low enough for the tank to survive extended exposure to it?

And the center runs into a whole new set of problems. Keying the center to one given science power (your case, GW), means that the MVAE or whatever cruiser(s) have LtCmdr science can go in ready with the "one desired science power" and own the center. Having a group of weak enemies = CSV lunch, and having a couple of them at "very strong" levels means that "single delay" powers like TB, EWP, etc. can delay them as well as a sci.

Some random thoughts to plan this potential foundry mission around...
50: S'Leth/Eurthyr/S. Dareau/Ardrian/Krudge/Annlova Not: Jadja
Still at it. CBS "restrictions" fell by wayside with freebie Breen. Time to re-examine ENT and ToS at tier 5, repurpose the Connie into Sci and rebuild an Akira escort into the "NX". 6 "eras", spread evenly over all the classes...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 9
01-21-2013, 01:31 PM
All of this would siphon time from their Lockbox Development. None of this, however much sense it might make, will ever happen.
All cloaks should be canon.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 10
01-21-2013, 02:03 PM
Argh. Holy Trinity BAD Mkay? We do not need missions that 'require' a tank. We need cruisers and sci vessels to become more effective at killing things. The best option is to make them effective at killing things differently than escorts but I highly doubt that is a possible option.

To all the 'we need content that requires a tank' I say fine I"ll bring my armatige that has such a high bonus defense only 1 in 4 shots hit her and did I mention she has max shield resist thanks to EPTS 3?

Or the 'we need content that requires CC' I say thats fine too, I got an MVAE and a timeship although the Vesta really isn't that shabby either for the job.

- Fix beams, either with a new 'cruiser only + some sci' beam array or just fix them in general.

- Fix damage scaling of boff abilities so a skilled gravity well + tractor beam can do more than tickle a target without breaking PvP

- Create engagements that require variety, such as gateways that nearly insta-kill anything within 8km so beams can be more effective in that situation. Enemies with a high defense and maneuver quickly to make accuracy important and are difficult to keep in the front arc without an immobilize. An enemy with 75% shield resist and 50k shields but paper thin hull so bypassing the shield is more effective than whittling it down.
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