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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
Quote:
TL: DR;
► Vo'Quv and Recluse need a buff to make them compare to other carrier class ships.
► Recluse should compete with the JDread, not be one-upped by it.
Right so, patch fixes our scorpion double-launch on Recluses.

Kinda figured it'd happen sooner or later. Not too much of a big deal, but, with the announcement of the Jem Dreadnaught, coupled with it, you guys have basically removed almost all aspects of what made the ship unique, and one upped it in the same stroke. That, and the poor Vo'quv's just been tossed to the road.

From the stats of the Wiki:
Tholian Recluse Carrier
Quote:
Hull:43,500
Shield Modifier:1.375
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft [Can equip dual cannons.]
Hangar Bays: 2
Crew:2500
Device Slots: 4
2 Tholian Widow Fighter Hangar Pets
Bridge Officers:
-- 1 Ensign Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Engineering
-- 1 Ensign Science
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Science
-- 1 Commander Universal
Consoles:
-- 2 Tactical
-- 4 Engineering
-- 4 Science
Turn Rate:5.5 degrees per second
Impulse Modifier:0.18
Bonus Power:
+5 engine power
+5 auxiliary power
Subsystem Targeting
Cost:800 Lobi
Vo'quv
Quote:
Type:Carrier
Hull:42,000
Shield Modifier:1
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft
Can equip dual cannons
Hangar Bays: 2
Crew:4,000
Bridge Officers:
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Engineering
-- 2 Lieutenant Commander Science
Device Slots:4
Consoles: 2 Tactical, 3 Engineering, 4 Science
Turn Rate:5
Impulse Modifier:0.15
Inertia rating:20
Bonus Power:+10 auxiliary power
Cost: 120,000 Dilithium
Now compare this to the JDread:
Quote:
Hull: 45,000
Shield Modifier: 1.15
Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft [Can equip cannons]
Hangar Bays: 2
Crew: 3500
Device Slots: 3
2 Jem'Hadar Fighter Hanger Pets
Bridge Officer Stations:
-- 1 Commander Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Engineering
-- 1 Ensign Science
-- 1 Lieutenant Universal
Console Modifications: 4 Tactical, 4 Engineering, 2 Science
Base Turn Rate: 6 degrees per second
Impulse Modifier: 0.17
Inertia rating: 70
Bonus Power:
+10 Weapon Power
+10 Auxiliary Power
Subsystem Targeting
Cost:800 Lobi
Going by standard Cryptic mentality, more crew = more massive ship.

So a ship, 40% more massive than the Recluse / 12% less massive than the Vo'Quv:
Moves the same speed / 10% faster (Expected)
Maneuvers 10% / 20% better
Has an extra weapons slot
And, (And this is the big one) has the inertia rating of a DEFIANT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are the only two carriers with less than +15 subsystem power.
Old Revision: Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are also the only two ships in the game above Lieutenant grade that have less than 15 bonus subsystem power. Dread's got 20.
[Edit: seems support class ships only have +10 Aux]


This new JDread is a major slap to the face to recluse pilots. Moreso to anyone flying the Vo'quv who can't afford to get a Lobi ship. I can understand the need to make the new ships desirable, but AFAIK, you guys were shooting for a non-pay to win thing with ships. Now's not the time to start.
(Some may argue otherwise, but upto now, things like the Bug were actually pretty in-line with fleet ships, just with different layouts)

So, what I propose is this:
Up the Vo'quv and Recluse turn rate by 0.5?/sec
Give us another +5 subsystem power, at least, to put us inline with other carrier classes
Up our inertia modifiers (Vo'quv has 20, srsly.)
Or give us something worth having that competes with the Dread.

Discuss, and please try to keep it civil. =\
LTS Since Beta Weekend
Formerly @BlackWyvern
Stupid account merge...

Last edited by ebonywyvern; 01-24-2013 at 12:23 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
# 2
01-24-2013, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonywyvern View Post
Right so, patch fixes our scorpion double-launch on Recluses.

Kinda figured it'd happen sooner or later. Not too much of a big deal, but, with the announcement of the Jem Dreadnaught, coupled with it, you guys have basically removed almost all aspects of what made the ship unique, and one upped it in the same stroke. That, and the poor Vo'quv's just been tossed to the road.

From the stats of the Wiki:
Tholian Recluse Carrier


Vo'quv


Now compare this to the JDread:


Going by standard Cryptic mentality, more crew = more massive ship.

So a ship, 40% more massive than the Recluse / 12% less massive than the Vo'Quv:
Moves the same speed / 10% faster (Expected)
Maneuvers 10% / 20% better
Has an extra weapons slot
And, (And this is the big one) has the inertia rating of a DEFIANT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are the only two carriers with less than +15 subsystem power.
Old Revision: Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are also the only two ships in the game above Lieutenant grade that have less than 15 bonus subsystem power. Dread's got 20.
[Edit: seems support class ships only have +10 Aux]

This new JDread is a major slap to the face to recluse pilots. Moreso to anyone flying the Vo'quv who can't afford to get a Lobi ship. I can understand the need to make the new ships desirable, but AFAIK, you guys were shooting for a non-pay to win thing with ships. Now's not the time to start.
(Some may argue otherwise, but upto now, things like the Bug were actually pretty in-line with fleet ships, just with different layouts)

So, what I propose is this:
Up the Vo'quv and Recluse turn rate by 0.5?/sec
Give us another +5 subsystem power, at least, to put us inline with other carrier classes
Up our inertia modifiers (Vo'quv has 20, srsly.)
Or give us something worth having that competes with the Dread.

Discuss, and please try to keep it civil. =\
My voquv is a beast some would say almost unbreakable (when power is going to shields)

Numbers is just numbers

Everyone knew the JH ships were goin to be fantastic thats what you get when you spend crazy real life money or crazy time earned ec getting one

I personally feel the voquv needs at least it's shield modifier looking at even if its the fleet version but it won't
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====----
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 776
# 3
01-24-2013, 12:42 PM
I agree with this, and in a perfect world, I'd be jumping on the band wagon and trying to get some dev support.

But in this game, we live in a Perfect World. And this isn't about balance, this is about money. The lock box ships are kinda like cars in the real world. Think about it, when the car companies make cars, they make more money if you keep coming back to them every few years for a new car. They either do that by making the car not last past a set time, or by make a new car look better than your older one.

Cryptic just gave us the Recluse, and because the Lobi store doesn't change, that ship will be there forever. And code doesn't wear out, so when they bring out this new carrier, they have to make it better than the old carrier to get the largest number of people to buy it. If they made it the same as the Recluse then only ship collectors and the big spenders would want it. Everyone else would say, eh, I have my Recluse, or Atrox, or Vo'que and that's enough for me. And Cryptic doesn't make money off that.

So, lets make this about money. Let Cryptic create a new item in the lobi store, call it a ship upgrade pack, that requires you to have the ship it is for, like the armor upgrades. When you buy the pack, you lose your existing ship and get a pack with a new ship of the same type but is upgraded to the latest revision. So, you give up your Recluse and get back a new Recluse with the same turn rate and such as the Jem'Hadar Dreadnaught, all for the low cost of only 400 Lobi. Everyone is equally unhappy, Cryptic gets some money and we get a better ship that we like, but we have to pay for it.
Joined September 2011
Nouveau riche LTS member
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
# 4
01-24-2013, 01:03 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the JDread isn't worth going after. Even if it was in-line with my Recluse I'd go after it, it just looks wicked, not to mention has a higher innate damage potential.

But, they shouldn't've had to make my ship, which was already 800 lobi, obsolete just to get my attention.
Bit blunt, but it's essentially what they did. Sure it flies and performs the same as it had (Minus a few dozen plasma burns here and there..) but the JDread just does most of the same things better.
LTS Since Beta Weekend
Formerly @BlackWyvern
Stupid account merge...

Last edited by ebonywyvern; 01-24-2013 at 01:06 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
# 5
01-24-2013, 01:07 PM
Completely agree its the same with laptops

I don't mind having to go to Pcworld every year for the latest and greatest i7 or i20

But I will NOT play the lottery for one or open 160-190 lottery boxes

Which in that case I will have to do with what I have which is still working for now but when everyone owns a lotto ship ill just leave and play football manager or something

P.S. I love buying ships from z store normally spend around ?20 a month in there but the ships outa there suck especially red side so really getting afraid for MY gameplay the last was the Guramba ...in pvp it just gets laughed at only have the Gorn sci ship left to buy see what the new year brings
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====----
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 776
# 6
01-24-2013, 01:14 PM
That's pretty much what I said Wyvern, but Cryptic wants as much money as they can get from these ships, so they think they have to make it not only look aswesome, but also outperform the last awesome thing.

Personally I would have liked some corvette sized tholian ships in the dilithium store so my Recluse could also have a BoP sized pet, but ah well.

And to make this clear, this isn't a lottery for the dreadnaught, its a pretty known price. Any 800 lobi ship costs someone about $180. That's assuming that each box gives an average of 5 lobi, which seems about right. Granted you may buy the keys with dilithium or EC, or you might just buy the ship off the market with EC, but for every Recluse or Dreadnaught you see, that $180 that Cryptic made off of someone.
Joined September 2011
Nouveau riche LTS member
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 7
01-24-2013, 01:23 PM
They didn't make the Recluse or Voquv obsolete with this new ship. It has way too much tacical, not enough eng and sci stations for a ship that still has bad turn. Voquv and Recluse will still be able to tank better and support better with more sci skills to use with pets. I do think they should get a few minor tweaks to their stats like slightly better inertia6 turn rate, +5 more power, and slightly more shield mod for Voquv, but even then without this these ships still have their places and can do tasks the Jem Dreadnought cant do.

To take full advantage of the Jem Dreadnoughts tac stations you will have to use DHC on it, some people can manage this on ships with bad turn in pve like Bortasqu pilots, but many won't be able to manage this and would be better off in another carrier.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
# 8
01-24-2013, 01:40 PM
I've never really gotten the whole 'bad turning' argument on carriers. Stay at range, and backmove whilst feathering the throttle, and staying in arc is actually pretty easy. If the Hyperplasmas werent so OP with torp Doffs and photons/rockets accumulating procs, I'd definitely consider using DHC's on it.

I'll agree that the JDread is more tactically focused, but, it's still got a viable tank on it.

TT1 | TSV2 | TSV3 | APB3
TT1 | APB1
EP2S1 | EP2S2 | Aux2Sif2
HE1
TSS1 | TSS2

Asim, ZPEH, Tachyo, Mono
2x Field Gens
4x Ambiplasma

2x Elite Scorps

Could sub out the torps n scorps for more energy focus, but plasma is stupidly OP at the moment in PVE.
LTS Since Beta Weekend
Formerly @BlackWyvern
Stupid account merge...

Last edited by ebonywyvern; 01-24-2013 at 01:47 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 9
01-24-2013, 02:08 PM
Those plasma spam builds are good for eng, sci, or tacs not using crit builds, but on my tac with every possible crit bonus there is on it I do much better with DHC and quantums with all crit mods on it. Plasma burns don't help when you are killing targets fast, and the quantums just crit way harder and I am firing them often enough with doffs. It has a little more tac then is needed for a plasma spam build too though, you just need a Lt Cmdr tac station for a build like that, or your Recluse with Cmdr and ensign tac will be more then enough to give you all the torp skills you need and an attack patern and tac team
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
# 10
01-24-2013, 03:04 PM
Plasma procs crit when your torps crit.
Rom hyperplasmas crit as a trisect.
8-15k a torp plus 3x 1.2k-3k plasma ticks.
Crit build is perfectly reasonable.
LTS Since Beta Weekend
Formerly @BlackWyvern
Stupid account merge...
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