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Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6
# 81
01-28-2013, 08:31 AM
It makes sense that the turn rates would be as such, since with the Fed's cruisers the bulk of the mass is concentrated mid/front whereas with the "drearrier" the mass is concentrated mid/rear closer to the engines, thus the weight is more easily manipulated.


It would be an interesting concept if turn rate and inertia were dictated by how you customized the look of your ship.

But ultimately that would be alot of coding, and it would probably grow silly to see the majority of ships in compact themes, as there would be no benefit to having an extended size ship. Maybe if there were some sort of tanking bonus in exchange it could be a novel ideal.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 82
01-28-2013, 09:19 AM
After reading all this thread i'd just advise to cruiser captains to switch to an escort if they want to DPS stuff and turn like mad (why not?), or to find a random solo game if they think STO isn't meant to be played by teams.

Or to roll a tac if they don't like to play a support role because it's not "glorious enough" to help others instead of being the DPS hero, which is, i assume, the exclusive and only issue here. Plain and simple ego troubles.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 83
01-28-2013, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
After reading all this thread i'd just advise to cruiser captains to switch to an escort if they want to DPS stuff and turn like mad (why not?), or to find a random solo game if they think STO isn't meant to be played by teams.

Or to roll a tac if they don't like to play a support role because it's not "glorious enough" to help others instead of being the DPS hero, which is, i assume, the exclusive and only issue here. Plain and simple ego troubles.
It is kind of funny how few cruiser captains are willing to play support craft and beg for the DPC capability of escorts isn't it...

Tbh, I agree though. You want massive damage output, re-roll a tacscort. I can guarantee you will not drop things as fast as a tac in a fleet defiant/bug in ANYTHING else (anything being any other career/ship). There is a reason I advise all of my friends who join the game to roll a tac. They say "ooh, engi/sci looks cool!". I tell them plain and simple that this game is almost exclusively damage based (at least end-game PvE is) and they either laugh and go play another game, or reluctantly roll a tac, and thank me later (later being after they've had some real combat under their belts i.e. ESTFs).

Here's something plain and simple. Cruisers are support craft. They are designed to lay down cover fire and constant damage. And I don't care how weak your BAs are, you can still at least negate shield recharge of a target. Those SUPPORT CRAFT are also good for healing, and being a meat-wall. Now if this game had a taunt of some kind that worked in players (TC for NPCs, only a player version) that made it so tanks would be viable again in ALL aspects of the game. Here's the post: BLARG!!!!!

But as I have stated zillions of times, I still would propose the return of the 20% damage lost on beams in the BFAW disco nerf, and a slight accuracy bonus. Nothing more. That might make cruiser pilots feel like they're doing a little bit more. Oh wells.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 84
01-28-2013, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
After reading all this thread i'd just advise to cruiser captains to switch to an escort if they want to DPS stuff and turn like mad (why not?), or to find a random solo game if they think STO isn't meant to be played by teams.

Or to roll a tac if they don't like to play a support role because it's not "glorious enough" to help others instead of being the DPS hero, which is, i assume, the exclusive and only issue here. Plain and simple ego troubles.
I guess, It's more about the fact that in PvE, you do not need support role, as its dps fest..so people feel useless, unless they do dmg. And if you regularly pvp and pve, and check the composition of your team, you will already see its 4/5 tacs, 4/5 escorts.
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2
# 85
01-28-2013, 01:35 PM
I would trade turn rate for more hull. The idea of space exploration in a pinata is an eternal fail. Let the KDF flail madly at a impulse driven FED anvil. How about 50% increase in hull instead of +2 turn rate?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 86
01-28-2013, 01:39 PM
I wonder if all those people who say cruisers should only be support ships know how blatantly self-serving they sound, and how obvious it is they don't play cruisers.

It is exclusive and elitist to say "You shouldn't be able to do what I do, you should exist only to serve me by taking threat or healing me." Especially while at the same time utterly devaluing tanking and support by the simple and obvious fact that you don't do it.

(I fly a Vesta right now, Recluse before that, and a Chimera before that.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by heresincebeta View Post
That's my point... this thread is nothing more than another attempt to take away any uniqueness of the KDF... FED's already took cloaks and carriers... now they want to eliminate the slight maneuverability bonus of the KDF battlecruisers too!
You realize this sounds a lot like the arguments against same-sex marriage, against interracial marriages, against women's suffrage, against outlawing segregation, against women's rights...

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 87
01-28-2013, 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
I guess, It's more about the fact that in PvE, you do not need support role, as its dps fest..so people feel useless, unless they do dmg. And if you regularly pvp and pve, and check the composition of your team, you will already see its 4/5 tacs, 4/5 escorts.
Because all the current PvE endgame queues are easy, and because supporting your team members in some fleet actions such as starbase 24 won't be rewarding at all. But in the newest instances, such as Hive onslaught, the tholian red alert, or even in a no win scenario, one good and competent healer in your team is a gift from the gods.

I just hope that season 8 will give us more opportunities to bring more support ships into the battle.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,333
# 88
01-29-2013, 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
I wonder if all those people who say cruisers should only be support ships know how blatantly self-serving they sound, and how obvious it is they don't play cruisers.

It is exclusive and elitist to say "You shouldn't be able to do what I do, you should exist only to serve me by taking threat or healing me." Especially while at the same time utterly devaluing tanking and support by the simple and obvious fact that you don't do it.

(I fly a Vesta right now, Recluse before that, and a Chimera before that.)
While I agree with you, there should be limitations of each class to keep them unique. Even though there should be more potent cruisers, there should also be cruiser designs that should be only for support ships (for those who do want/enjoy a support heavy role).


Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
You realize this sounds a lot like the arguments against same-sex marriage, against interracial marriages, against women's suffrage, against outlawing segregation, against women's rights...
I really don't see how you could take that much of a stretch on political terms from that statement. It sounds like you would be saying that historians and game designers would be discriminatory if they kept the "quantity vs. quality" issues between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces in stories and games. The guys is talking about unique core competencies that distinguish the KDF ships from the Fed's ships. KDF ships give up certain things to get their advantages. While they might not be as equitable as some of want, it adds a flavor that keeps up from having both factions fighting each other in exactly the same ships as their opponents.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,333
# 89
01-29-2013, 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
Because all the current PvE endgame queues are easy, and because supporting your team members in some fleet actions such as starbase 24 won't be rewarding at all. But in the newest instances, such as Hive onslaught, the tholian red alert, or even in a no win scenario, one good and competent healer in your team is a gift from the gods.

I just hope that season 8 will give us more opportunities to bring more support ships into the battle.
It may be a gift from the gods, but much of the time its almost a death sentence for the healer/cruiser especially if the other players can't (or won't) protect the cruiser when the enemy decided to focus on the cruiser. The cruisers weapons bounce off of the escorts and shy of a miracle, the cruiser has no chance to evade. There's no real deterrent to attacking the cruiser of a group; they take more damage per shot, use up all of their heals and tend to not be able to fight off the attackers and when it is down it cant heal/support its friendlies. A team would be a fool not to victimize cruisers first.

Cruisers need some "real" from of a deterrent to enemy escorts.

Last edited by whamhammer1; 01-29-2013 at 12:42 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 90
01-29-2013, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
While I agree with you, there should be limitations of each class to keep them unique. Even though there should be more potent cruisers, there should also be cruiser designs that should be only for support ships (for those who do want/enjoy a support heavy role).
Agreed. However the current damage discrepancy appears to be far too high. The difference between an average cruiser dealing 4k DPS and an average escort dealing 6k DPS in a quick 5 minute STF is 600,000 damage.

At the same time, the survival difference is not that great - it doesn't matter that you have 1000% more hull and shields if you only ever drop to 90% shields/hull and neither types of ships die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
I really don't see how you could take that much of a stretch on political terms from that statement. It sounds like you would be saying that historians and game designers would be discriminatory if they kept the "quantity vs. quality" issues between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces in stories and games. The guys is talking about unique core competencies that distinguish the KDF ships from the Fed's ships. KDF ships give up certain things to get their advantages. While they might not be as equitable as some of want, it adds a flavor that keeps up from having both factions fighting each other in exactly the same ships as their opponents.
You misunderstood. My point is the stance of "I have X, and you shouldn't have it in spite of that fact that it does not affect my possession of X in any way" bears striking familiarities to the anti-same-sex marriage arguments that it would somehow devalue their marriage because other people want to be married.

It is also NOT a "core competency", but simply an imbalance that exists. Whatever balance may exist is not defined by 1 turn rate. They still have cloaks, they still have universal BOff slots. It is an extremely minor difference to the KDF but a huge difference to quality of life for Fed cruiser pilots. The KDF fanatics have a hair-trigger prosecution complex against any possible improvements for Feds because the KDF lack content.

If the KDF had as much content as the Feds, nobody would rant about being robbed of their uniqueness if Fed bricks became slightly faster bricks.

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
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