Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
Wall of text to follow, you were warned. TLDR...look down



The biggest issue I've noticed so far is that there is almost no way to even come close to what an escort can produce dps wise. At least not without highly specialized builds that become less effective everywhere else.

And that is as it should be.. well sorta. Yes the escort's role is dealing damage, but, shouldn't there be a way to at least come close in the other types of ship? I'm talking about pre buffing here, obviously an escort should out damage with all the tac buffs available but there should at least be comparable weapons available to the other ship classes.

As it stands a mk xii standard dual heavy cannon deals 384 dpv and 256d ps, where as a mx xii dual beam bank deals 287 dpv and 229 dps. Which is a marked difference in potential. Granted the beam bank has doubble the firing arc but I feel that is countered by the fact that of the vessels that can't use dual cannons only the science vessels really have the turn rate to employ them properly (with a few exceptions).

Really most of this problem applys to cruisers but afew other vessels can fall into this rut. The fact is there are plenty of ships (mostly fed side I'm sure) that fall into the no mans land of beam arrays, where the only option is arrays and nothing else will work properlly (I'm looking at you 6 degree turn rates).

So we can either up the turn rates on the slower ships (but honestly I doubt that would help much), or we can introduce more beam weapons to fill the gap in effectiveness.

So far there are 4 cannon type weapons and only 2 beam type. With the cannon weapons having the widest arc weapons and the highest damage weapons. They also favor the narrow arc weapons having 2 narrow arc 1 medium arc and one wide arc available. So far beams only haave a medium and wide arc weapon. I propose 2 new beam type weapons to balance this out favoring the wide arc

The first type would be the heavy version of a beam array
270 degree firing arc
440 dpv 176 dps
-14 weapons power levels

The second would be a beam version of a turret
360 degree firing arc
132 dpv 99 dps
-8 weapons power levels

I also find it strange the the highest level beam skills can only be used on a select few ship classes, most of which are also capeable of using dual cannons. This seems to further push the bias against the beam type since at those levels cannon skills can do more damage. I would propose moving the tier 3 beam weapon skills down a rank. Since none of them are available to the skills trainers anyway I don't think this would affect balance too much. However I would also suggest beam overload 3 get a higher power drain to discourage its use on the already stacked escorts.

Thoughts?

TLDR? Give us 2 more beam weapon types and move the high level beam weapon skills down a rank.

Better stuff here http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=533021
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln

Last edited by disposeableh3r0; 02-15-2013 at 11:01 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 2
01-25-2013, 11:42 PM
Cruiser captains will love this idea, escort captains will conceal their fear of this idea by saying it's "unnecessary". And nothing will change.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 3
01-25-2013, 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
Cruiser captains will love this idea, escort captains will conceal their fear of this idea by saying it's "unnecessary". And nothing will change.
To be fair tho it can benifit an escort captain too. The beam skills at lower levels means they could still take say a bo3 and have room for 2 ltc abilitys. Or use 4 froe bhc's and a rear beam turret with a subsyem ability or bo.
A
nd beam turrets favor science vessels more since they could use foreward dbb's and still use the innate sub system targeting with a rear beam turret.

Really is odd there are so many beam skills and so few beam weapons.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,687
# 4
01-26-2013, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
Cruiser captains will love this idea, escort captains will conceal their fear of this idea by saying it's "unnecessary". And nothing will change.
I favor this as long as:

Sci doesn't get jacked in the process (and I don't fly any sci ships). (I suspect this means some serious subsystem targeting buffs and shield tanking improvements.)

Escorts get their own form of tanking/survivability. Because a totally DPS focused cruiser will still out-tank an escort. And if we're looking at how to do this, I think it means a third resource beyond shields and hull that measures evasion capability.

The net effect would be:

Cruisers have maximum sustained durability.
Science would be inbetween (probably have enhanced DOT resist).
Escorts would have maximum burst resistance by flat out avoiding being hit or through partial avoidance on a high percentage of burst weapon attacks.

But declaring DPS king (which means Cryptic waving the white flag on novel encounter design or building in the assumption that people's gear is good) and balancing DPS means everyone needs equal survivability.

If a cruiser can do escort-like damage, an escort needs cruiser-like survivability.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 5
01-26-2013, 12:14 AM
I would just add a simple toggle, for beam arrays.

Option One: Fire individual emmiters

Situation we have now, many beams shooting the target.
  • Can be used with FAW and subsystem targeting
  • Higher accuracy and dmg on longer ranges (like current beams)
  • Not that energy efficient

Option Two: Link forward and aft emmiters to single forward and aft array

Creates a situation where one single beam comes from array
  • Can only be used with beam overload
  • Lower accuracy and dmg over longer ranges (like cannons)
  • Arc decresed to 135 degrees (so no broadside)
  • Would work like DHC, higher dmg per hit (depends on amount of linked arrays), less hits per volley
  • Energy efficient
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 6
01-26-2013, 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I favor this as long as:

Sci doesn't get jacked in the process (and I don't fly any sci ships). (I suspect this means some serious subsystem targeting buffs and shield tanking improvements.)

Escorts get their own form of tanking/survivability. Because a totally DPS focused cruiser will still out-tank an escort. And if we're looking at how to do this, I think it means a third resource beyond shields and hull that measures evasion capability.

The net effect would be:

Cruisers have maximum sustained durability.
Science would be inbetween (probably have enhanced DOT resist).
Escorts would have maximum burst resistance by flat out avoiding being hit or through partial avoidance on a high percentage of burst weapon attacks.

But declaring DPS king (which means Cryptic waving the white flag on novel encounter design or building in the assumption that people's gear is good) and balancing DPS means everyone needs equal survivability.

If a cruiser can do escort-like damage, an escort needs cruiser-like survivability.
Honestly I doubt even with the 2 new weapons a cruiser will ever out dps an escort.

An oddy with its ltc station devoted to a tac looses qhite a bit of survivability add to that a tac captain and you are left with only 7 abilitys that you can devote to healing add to that tier 1 and 2 engineering powers tend to all share a cd. So not that tanky there is a trade off. and the point is moot on the kdf since everything can use cannons

On the flip side the only thing that could possibly support multiple heavy arrays would be an engineer class and even then with a 14 point power drain I don't imagine you could support many for long. Plus I left the dps equal to regular beam arrays so its probably still not as good as a set of DHC's.

Plus nothing I suggested is restricted. So each ship class has equal access.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 7
01-26-2013, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I favor this as long as:

Sci doesn't get jacked in the process (and I don't fly any sci ships). (I suspect this means some serious subsystem targeting buffs and shield tanking improvements.)

Escorts get their own form of tanking/survivability. Because a totally DPS focused cruiser will still out-tank an escort. And if we're looking at how to do this, I think it means a third resource beyond shields and hull that measures evasion capability.

The net effect would be:

Cruisers have maximum sustained durability.
Science would be inbetween (probably have enhanced DOT resist).
Escorts would have maximum burst resistance by flat out avoiding being hit or through partial avoidance on a high percentage of burst weapon attacks.

But declaring DPS king (which means Cryptic waving the white flag on novel encounter design or building in the assumption that people's gear is good) and balancing DPS means everyone needs equal survivability.

If a cruiser can do escort-like damage, an escort needs cruiser-like survivability.
- Science Vessels already have the best sustained tanking thanks to their high shield modifier and extremely powerful regenerative doff abilities. If desired you can push their natural regen to nearly 1k shield per 6 seconds.

- Escorts already have strong tanking and burst resistance. First off they have the highest amount of damage ignored/mitigated of any ship thanks to higher defense and the ability to pack the same quantity of resistance. Combine that with things like attack pattern omega that pretty much says enemy will miss 3 out of 4 shots for burst and their you go. If you doubt this please tell me how many non immobilized escorts get killed in PvP when teams are skilled.

If this was a standard MMO that had tank and spank encounters they would have escort main tanks and Sci Vessel healers. That is not to say cruiser tank capability is lacking, it really isn't nor is it required to push tankability to an extreme in this game, but they already are the hybrid. Incidentally that is also why they are useless from a min/max perspective.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 772
# 8
01-26-2013, 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Wall of text to follow, you were warned. TLDR...look down



The biggest issue I've noticed so far is that there is almost no way to even come close to what an escort can produce dps wise. At least not without highly specialized builds that become less effective everywhere else.

And that is as it should be.. well sorta. Yes the escort's role is dealing damage, but, shouldn't there be a way to at least come close in the other types of ship? I'm talking about pre buffing here, obviously an escort should out damage with all the tac buffs available but there should at least be comparable weapons available to the other ship classes.

As it stands a mk xii standard dual heavy cannon deals 384 dpv and 256d ps, where as a mx xii dual beam bank deals 287 dpv and 229 dps. Which is a marked difference in potential. Granted the beam bank has doubble the firing arc but I feel that is countered by the fact that of the vessels that can't use dual cannons only the science vessels really have the turn rate to employ them properly (with a few exceptions).

Really most of this problem applys to cruisers but afew other vessels can fall into this rut. The fact is there are plenty of ships (mostly fed side I'm sure) that fall into the no mans land of beam arrays, where the only option is arrays and nothing else will work properlly (I'm looking at you 6 degree turn rates).

So we can either up the turn rates on the slower ships (but honestly I doubt that would help much), or we can introduce more beam weapons to fill the gap in effectiveness.

So far there are 4 cannon type weapons and only 2 beam type. With the cannon weapons having the widest arc weapons and the highest damage weapons. They also favor the narrow arc weapons having 2 narrow arc 1 medium arc and one wide arc available. So far beams only haave a medium and wide arc weapon. I propose 2 new beam type weapons to balance this out favoring the wide arc

The first type would be the heavy version of a beam array
270 degree firing arc
440 dpv 176 dps
-14 weapons power levels

The second would be a beam version of a turret
360 degree firing arc
132 dpv 99 dps
-8 weapons power levels

I also find it strange the the highest level beam skills can only be used on a select few ship classes, most of which are also capeable of using dual cannons. This seems to further push the bias against the beam type since at those levels cannon skills can do more damage. I would propose moving the tier 3 beam weapon skills down a rank. Since none of them are available to the skills trainers anyway I don't think this would affect balance too much. However I would also suggest beam overload 3 get a higher power drain to discourage its use on the already stacked escorts.

Thoughts?

TLDR? Give us 2 more beam weapon types and move the high level beam weapon skills down a rank.
One of the problems not mentioned is the power drain mechanics of DHCs vs any beam arrays. DHCs instantly get all the power back (always firing at full power) vs beams only receiving power back after the full firing cycle (beam DPS constantly drops dramatically lowering DPS output on a broadside except for very limited use gimmicks). Without addressing the power drain mechanics first, I don't believe new beam weapons will help much.

Edit : see this thread about beam arrays http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=524071.

Last edited by sparhawk; 01-26-2013 at 02:40 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 298
# 9
01-26-2013, 03:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparhawk View Post
One of the problems not mentioned is the power drain mechanics of DHCs vs any beam arrays. DHCs instantly get all the power back (always firing at full power) vs beams only receiving power back after the full firing cycle (beam DPS constantly drops dramatically lowering DPS output on a broadside except for very limited use gimmicks). Without addressing the power drain mechanics first, I don't believe new beam weapons will help much.

Edit : see this thread about beam arrays http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=524071.
This +1.

In addition, OP only lightly touches on turn rate, which is far more important than many in this thread have so far discussed. Sure cruisers have a large firing arc to compensate, but the truth is you cant sustain broadside for more than a second or two against an escort with such high maneuverability. Evasive man will help but it has a long CD, given the choice of other devices most cruisers won't carry engine batteries, and APO, not to mention some space sets, give even more evasion to escorts. So 6, 7 or even 8 BA is a joke because most times its only the fore or aft beams that sustain fire for any significant period of time (unless you're talking non/slow moving borg). And please, TB and GW don't hold any decently piloted escorts.

IMHO cruisers need love in the following areas:
1. DPS output of beams, either through a heavy ba, faster firing, straight increase, etc.
2. Power Drain is too high and has been covered by the above post.
3. Turn Rate - discussed in para above.
4. Better tanking and healing skills (for others not self). +Th Consoles help but where are the Field Gen +Th? The new +Th Doffs are nice but, to equip them means cruisers lose out on other Doff options just so they have a chance to inch out the threat an escort puts out, who has 5 doffs fully utilized for it's purpose of max dps. Show me a cruiser that uses 3 or even 2 +Th Doffs and I'll show you a cruiser that is not optimally built.

Last edited by sonulinu2; 01-26-2013 at 03:15 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 10
01-26-2013, 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonulinu2 View Post
This +1.

In addition, OP only lightly touches on turn rate, which is far more important than many in this thread have so far discussed. Sure cruisers have a large firing arc to compensate, but the truth is you cant sustain broadside for more than a second or two against an escort with such high maneuverability. Evasive man will help but it has a long CD, given the choice of other devices most cruisers won't carry engine batteries, and APO, not to mention some space sets, give even more evasion to escorts. So 6, 7 or even 8 BA is a joke because most times its only the fore or aft beams that sustain fire for any significant period of time (unless you're talking non/slow moving borg). And please, TB and GW don't hold any decently piloted escorts.

IMHO cruisers need love in the following areas:
1. DPS output of beams, either through a heavy ba, faster firing, straight increase, etc.
2. Power Drain is too high and has been covered by the above post.
3. Turn Rate - discussed in para above.
4. Better tanking and healing skills (for others not self). +Th Consoles help but where are the Field Gen +Th? The new +Th Doffs are nice but, to equip them means cruisers lose out on other Doff options just so they have a chance to inch out the threat an escort puts out, who has 5 doffs fully utilized for it's purpose of max dps.
I was actualy only talking about the issue with the weapons in general and was not trying to be specific to a ship class. The subject of cruisers and the love they need has been, and is currently being discussed in other threads. And as evidenced by the thread link the power drain issue has been brought up as well.

Current turn rate thread... http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=526211
longest running cruiser love thread... http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=440591
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln

Last edited by disposeableh3r0; 01-26-2013 at 03:19 AM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:20 PM.