Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 255
# 41
01-27-2013, 12:01 AM
So some thoughts- Assuming we the same Weapon Skills, the Same gear Suffexs,
and just looking at base stats, consider the following:

Cannon Escort boat 4 DHCs, 3 Turrets 45 degree forward attack range. (For Reference)
1024+396 = 1,420 dps
1536+297 =1,833 dpv

Cruiser with 8 Beams on the 70 Degree Broad side base dps with mk XII weapons is
176x8= 1,408 dps (12 less dps for 25 more degrees)
220x8 = 1,760 dpv

Cruiser 4 Cannons, 4 turrets 180 degrees forward
212x4+132x4
848 + 528= 1,376 dps (44 less dps for 135 more degrees)
636+396=1,032 dpv


Sci Ship 3 DBB 3 Turrets 90 Degree forward Attack range
687+396=1,083 dps
861+297=1,158 dpv

Sci Ship 6 Beam Banks 70 Degree Broad Side
176x6= 1,056 dps
220x6= 1,320 dpv

So straight talk for a minute, Escort dps will always be higher, why? b/c escorts can have 5 tac slots. The laws of math show that percentage based damage boosts are always going to help those with the highest base numbers the most. So Escorts with DHC/DC the weapons with the biggest damage number benefit the most from Percentage damage add. So as long as they keep that edge they will be kings of the direct burest damage.

But thats not the only or even the best way to deal damage.

What I do find interesting about this is, that DBB seems to break the patter, the sci ship with 3 DBB and 3 turrets does more damage in the forward 90 degrees then the 6 beam Sci ship with the 70 degree side.

Conclusions there so many factors, and the build that invalidates this whole discussion is the torp boat.

side discussion:
Ok I am of the opinion that the threat consoles are an epic trap. As I see it any console that doesn't directly augment your damage or survivability, is a slot wasted. Now I can almost accept the argument that reducing your threat improves your survivability, but its far to dependent upon a given situation. Your not getting anything out of that slot in pvp, or when soloing. In the other direction, increased threat is only useful in PVE, and only in a group where someone will actually out damage you.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,687
# 42
01-27-2013, 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maliusnight View Post
side discussion:
Ok I am of the opinion that the threat consoles are an epic trap. As I see it any console that doesn't directly augment your damage or survivability, is a slot wasted. Now I can almost accept the argument that reducing your threat improves your survivability, but its far to dependent upon a given situation. Your not getting anything out of that slot in pvp, or when soloing. In the other direction, increased threat is only useful in PVE, and only in a group where someone will actually out damage you.
Threat consoles are also sci consoles that add a plasma proc to all weapons. And they stack, allowing for multiple procs.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 43
01-27-2013, 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I favor this as long as:

Sci doesn't get jacked in the process (and I don't fly any sci ships). (I suspect this means some serious subsystem targeting buffs and shield tanking improvements.)

Escorts get their own form of tanking/survivability. Because a totally DPS focused cruiser will still out-tank an escort. And if we're looking at how to do this, I think it means a third resource beyond shields and hull that measures evasion capability.

The net effect would be:

Cruisers have maximum sustained durability.
Science would be inbetween (probably have enhanced DOT resist).
Escorts would have maximum burst resistance by flat out avoiding being hit or through partial avoidance on a high percentage of burst weapon attacks.

But declaring DPS king (which means Cryptic waving the white flag on novel encounter design or building in the assumption that people's gear is good) and balancing DPS means everyone needs equal survivability.

If a cruiser can do escort-like damage, an escort needs cruiser-like survivability.
It looks like you understand what's at stake but don't want to conclude anything. If cruisers get a dps boost then you need to boost the DPS of escorts and science ships, increase tanking, and so on. If it's done you need to redesign the whole game because all ships have been buffed, and you'll end up with the same issues (aka "cruisers not OP enough and so on").


So, for those who are complaining about their beloved cruiser, here are some advices about them.

While people keep complaining i've said many times that there were a lot of possibilities to increase the damage output and the base turnrate of cruisers. I've been flying a RA sovereign for a short time before i switched to a galor and this is what I'm doing with my ship.

Cruisers have 4 devices slots. While many people will use this to use ablative generators or turret devices as cruiser captains, this is a major opportunity to solve most of the problems peole have. These 4 device slots should always be filled with:
- 20 weapon batteries
- 20 engines batteries
- 20 aux batteries
- 5 deuterium surpluses

Deterium surpluses supplies are limited but it's a second "evasive maneuver" you may use at your convenence to get +400% turnrate for 8 seconds or so.

Since engine power levels is critical to increase your turnrate, I also suspect that cruiser captains complaining about such difficulties fly with weird power settings such as 100/50/25/25. Shield power is unnecessary though, since the regeneration rate is always ridiculous if you compare it with an emergency power to shields 3 or TSS2/3. I found out that 100/25/40/35 or even 100/25/50/25 is more relevant on most ships, including cruisers. Of course this means you're using some aux battery if you have tanking issues, but needing more aux to use your TSS means that your turnrate problems are solved since you're close enough to get your ass kicked.

If there is a shortage of deterium surplus and engine batteries, it's also highly recommanded to switch to full power to engines for a short time to get your ship into position, which is completely free and harmless, since you will have an EPS console equipped to make a good use of your fire at will abilities and to recover from quick power changes.

As a last resort, cruisers also have at least 6 to 8 eng slots, and you can use one or two to increase your tunrate or DPS. Some of them will increase both, some others will increase your turnrate while giving you increased tanking abilities:

- the most obvious ones: Emergency power to engines/weapons. Engines will increase your turnrate significantly, while weapons will help you sustaining your 8 beams in fire at will mode. 95% of good cruiser builds include: emergency power to weapons I + 2x emergency power to shields II/III due to shared CDs.

- Aux to dampeners. Even if it has a 10s shared CD with aux to SIF, this ability will allow you to get a meaningful turnrate boost and an increased kinetic tanking (good for those who fail at destroying borg HY torps). The CD is really short and i like this ability at level 1.

- aux to batteries. This one will increase your DPS and turnrate at the same time but will suck most of your aux power, which means a reduced tanking for some time. Your TSS, HE and Aux to SIF will be crippled for some time. The shared CD are far from being optimal and this isn't a power i am recommanding on cruisers but it's still an option.

- evasive maneuvers. It's a standard on all ships. And you can reduce the CD with a conn officer doff. Great on cruisers and it's the best option since you won't need some other weird doffs anyway.

- fire at will. Take the aggro, do more dps and get the most from your beams. No turnrate issue there since your ship will be turned into some sort of pretty "firework" device. Which means you'll hit most mobs on the map. and need no turnrate.

If you use all these advices your DPS and turnrate (to make a good use of your beams) will be a non-existent issue. I also have to say that those playing a cruiser and thinking they aren't fun don't know how cool it is to be able to tank 10 elite cruiser-level NPCs at the same time.

Most cruiser captains will tend not to take the aggro and choose a cruiser because it's an iconic ship they want to fly or because they have issues to resist to npcs with other ships. This is IMO a major mistake since I can assure you that i have a lot of fun tanking all NPCs on the map with 6 points in threat control and fire at will. This is how i play my galor; it's far from being the most resilent ship in this game so i guess any other cruiser will do this better than me. But of course, if you play your cruiser to avoid all aggro, not getting shot at, not healing teammates and not getting close to the 6 tac cubes you will tank in hive onslaught elite then you miss all the fun you can have with such ships.

Cruisers are fun because they can withsand crazy amounts of damage and never get into trouble unless you are doing it wrong, and it's really enjoyable if you're willing to do it.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-27-2013 at 01:40 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
# 44
01-27-2013, 01:50 AM
Responses in Red

Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post

Since engine power levels is critical to increase your turnrate, I also suspect that cruiser captains complaining about such difficulties fly with weird power settings such as 100/50/25/25. Shield power is unnecessary though, since the regeneration rate is always ridiculous if you compare it with an emergency power to shields 3 or TSS2/3. I found out that 100/25/40/35 or even 100/25/50/25 is more relevant on most ships, including cruisers. Of course this means you're using some aux battery if you have tanking issues, but needing more aux to use your TSS means that your turnrate problems are solved since you're close enough to get your ass kicked.

Shield power grants regen and resistance. And the passive regeneration is significant to think otherwise is, foolish. Infact EPTS is only as powerful as it is because of how powerful shield power itself is.

If there is a shortage of deterium surplus and engine batteries, it's also highly recommanded to switch to full power to engines for a short time to get your ship into position, which is completely free and harmless, since you will have an EPS console equipped to make a good use of your fire at will abilities and to recover from quick power changes.

EPS console has no effect on damage. None.

As a last resort, cruisers also have at least 6 to 8 eng slots, and you can use one or two to increase your tunrate or DPS. Some of them will increase both, some others will increase your turnrate while giving you increased tanking abilities:

- the most obvious ones: Emergency power to engines/weapons. Engines will increase your turnrate significantly, while weapons will help you sustaining your 8 beams in fire at will mode. 95% of good cruiser builds include: emergency power to weapons I + 2x emergency power to shields II/III due to shared CDs.

True it increases damage/turn rate. False that it is a significant boost.

- Aux to dampeners. Even if it has a 10s shared CD with aux to SIF, this ability will allow you to get a meaningful turnrate boost and an increased kinetic tanking (good for those who fail at destroying borg HY torps). The CD is really short and i like this ability at level 1.

- aux to batteries. This one will increase your DPS and turnrate at the same time but will suck most of your aux power, which means a reduced tanking for some time. Your TSS, HE and Aux to SIF will be crippled for some time. The shared CD are far from being optimal and this isn't a power i am recommanding on cruisers but it's still an option.

This ability plus doffs is the only reason some cruisers are worth flying.

- evasive maneuvers. It's a standard on all ships. And you can reduce the CD with a conn officer doff. Great on cruisers and it's the best option since you won't need some other weird doffs anyway.

- fire at will. Take the aggro, do more dps and get the most from your beams. No turnrate issue there since your ship will be turned into some sort of pretty "firework" device. Which means you'll hit most mobs on the map. and need no turnrate.

They still need to be in the weapon's arc for it to fire on them. Also spray and pray is not as effective as a three shot burst to a single target so to speak.

If you use all these advices your DPS and turnrate (to make a good use of your beams) will be a non-existent issue. I also have to say that those playing a cruiser and thinking they aren't fun don't know how cool it is to be able to tank 10 elite cruiser-level NPCs at the same time.

I don't get loot for tanking enemies, I get loot for killing them.

Most cruiser captains will tend not to take the aggro and choose a cruiser because it's an iconic ship they want to fly or because they have issues to resist to npcs with other ships. This is IMO a major mistake since I can assure you that i have a lot of fun tanking all NPCs on the map with 6 points in threat control and fire at will. This is how i play my galor; it's far from being the most resilent ship in this game so i guess any other cruiser will do this better than me. But of course, if you play your cruiser to avoid all aggro, not getting shot at, not healing teammates and not getting close to the 6 tac cubes you will tank in hive onslaught elite then you miss all the fun you can have with such ships.

I take agro in my escort so PuG team-mates don't die. HOS is also a nightmare to PuG and therefore has no relevance to me.

Cruisers are fun because they can withsand crazy amounts of damage and never get into trouble unless you are doing it wrong, and it's really enjoyable if you're willing to do it.

I can build a sci vessel that can afk tank any NPC encounter in the game. I can make an escort that NPCs cannot hit with three out of four shots. Neither will get me loot. DPS is king.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 45
01-27-2013, 01:51 AM
How has this become a cruiser debate. There are many other threads discussing cruisers and this was not meant to be one.

I would as that those who wish to debate ship balance move on to threads started for that purpose.

This thread was started to discuss adding weapons and adding capeabilitys to ALL ship classes.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 46
01-27-2013, 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Responses in Red
If you need shield power to tank then you have a problem. Of course if you use aux to bat then it's the source of your problems. Anyway I must be a wizard then, since even on ships with 6-8 turnrate i often have the best heal score and a good dps one in premades in STFs when i use a cruiser with beams. Must be magics, not a good build.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-27-2013 at 02:46 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 660
# 47
01-27-2013, 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
I'd also like to point out to every one that I was never arguing for or against the percieved inequities in ship classes, and that my OP was never about a specific or non specific ship type.

I was talking about weapons, and only weapons. And so far most of the feed back is just "Your idead is bad because it conflicts with what I think." and almost no one has posed a constructive argument refering to weapons specificaly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
How has this become a cruiser debate. There are many other threads discussing cruisers and this was not meant to be one.

I would as that those who wish to debate ship balance move on to threads started for that purpose.

This thread was started to discuss adding weapons and adding capeabilitys to ALL ship classes.


Ship types and weapon types are inseparably linked. You cannot discuss one without addressing the other. This is part of the game's core design, and hearkens all the way back to alpha testing. Any attempt to divorce the two halves of this ying-yang would result in massive imbalances.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 48
01-27-2013, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
Ship types and weapon types are inseparably linked. You cannot discuss one without addressing the other. This is part of the game's core design, and hearkens all the way back to alpha testing. Any attempt to divorce the two halves of this ying-yang would result in massive imbalances.
I was more refering that most of the arguments presented have little to do with the thread starter.

Some of the arguments presented also seem to have little to do with most of the thread, as if no one is reading anything.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,322
# 49
01-27-2013, 05:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
How has this become a cruiser debate. There are many other threads discussing cruisers and this was not meant to be one.

I would as that those who wish to debate ship balance move on to threads started for that purpose.

This thread was started to discuss adding weapons and adding capeabilitys to ALL ship classes.
They always do. I tried earlier in this thread to point out a pretty clear example of how looking at weapon balance is simply looking at weapon balance - not trying to balance ship types. Usually it will get at least one reply before the discussion is buried again in Escort vs. Cruiser. Here...nothing.

As you've said, there are countless threads out there discussing Cruisers and Escorts and this was not intended to be one. People do not read though. Because they've seen so many of the other threads, they assume this is just another one. It brings out all the Escort and Cruiser trolls. Because that's what it is - trolling - topic hijacking.

If the forums had an easier way to report posts - they might get the message and stop it.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
I.S.S. Arcadia, Stargazer-class Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 50
01-27-2013, 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
They always do. I tried earlier in this thread to point out a pretty clear example of how looking at weapon balance is simply looking at weapon balance - not trying to balance ship types. Usually it will get at least one reply before the discussion is buried again in Escort vs. Cruiser. Here...nothing.

As you've said, there are countless threads out there discussing Cruisers and Escorts and this was not intended to be one. People do not read though. Because they've seen so many of the other threads, they assume this is just another one. It brings out all the Escort and Cruiser trolls. Because that's what it is - trolling - topic hijacking.

If the forums had an easier way to report posts - they might get the message and stop it.
It's too bad too. I know the dev's read through the forums, if these people didn't bury all the ideas in a mountain of their "opinion facts" maybe things we want would actualy make it into the game.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:39 AM.