Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 111
01-31-2013, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
That could be a good starting point to make beams and cannons balanced.


Imagine if:

Beams did full damage out to 5km and it dropped off from 5km to 10km. Damage at 10km is still decent.
Cons: beams are not as power efficient:damage than cannons overall.
Pros: range of dropoff more than compensates for the con.

Cannons did full damage at 2km and under. Their damage drops off significantly from 2km to 5km and is near zero between 5 and 10km.

Now this would make a ton of sense as escorts do have the speed and turn rate to close in on a target (and they're supposed to!) to make attack runs.
Unless something has changed this already close to the case. Cannons drop off much faster than beams so at 10k beams do aproximately 65% of thier base damage while cannons do aproximately 35% of thier base damage.

Cannons already have to be as close as possible to get maximum efffect. Which is why its good alpha strike policy with cannons to not strike until 2-3 km instead of 7-10km.

This drop rate is aproximately 8% per km past the 2km mark for cannons and 4% per km past the 1km mark for beams.

Would it not be easier to just make beams drop at a lower rate of 2% so at 10km they do 82% of thier base damage.
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Last edited by bitemepwe; 01-31-2013 at 08:50 PM. Reason: posted 69 for beams originaly by mistake because I contemplating one with the ...... disractions distractions
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 112
02-01-2013, 12:24 AM
Quote:
Cannons drop off much faster than beams so at 10k beams do aproximately 65% of thier base damage while cannons do aproximately 35% of thier base damage.
But it does not change the fact that the damage difference is still in favour of cannons outside of very small difference beyond 7km (I think) that favours beams. But difference is minimal. So below 3km cannons decisively overpower beams. Between 3-7km cannons either are more powerfull or just as powerfull as beams and beams become more powerfull above 7km. But the difference is minimal and does not correspond to the advantage cannons have below 3km.

So the dropdown in power between beams and cannons does not really matter.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,577
# 113
02-01-2013, 12:36 AM
Another solution is why limit cruisers to using less tac consoles than escorts? Cannons are already higher dps why limit a cruiser further by giving cruisers {fleet tier 5 cruiser is an exception} 1-3 lousy tac console slots? They should be just as well equipped in the console dept. as any escort. The only thing that should set them apart is the basics, not console dmg capability. You give ships a very poor representation on this game!!! Instead of star trek, you should have called it cryptic's way trek!!!

Last edited by shadowwraith77; 02-02-2013 at 12:11 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 114
02-01-2013, 12:37 AM
Love how most of these turn into cannons vs beams arguments.

Makes sense, but still amusing. It all comes down to the simple fact that cannons were designed to large amounts of burst damage from up close, and beams were designed to be backline support weapons. It's just a shame that you can close distance so quickly on a target that the damage drop-off almost becomes a null point.

Just ask any escort pilot. I fly one, and I know for a fact I can close from 10km to 3km in 2 seconds or less, therefore eliminating any advantage beams may have had over cannons. And as a cruiser, I can't open distance between myself and an escort easily, if at all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 115
02-01-2013, 01:34 AM
^^ This.

Also - I can sit with my Patrol Escort with white Mk XI DHCs at 10km and still outDPS a cruiser with purple Mk XI or higher beams just because cannons are that much more powerfull and the boost from CRF and even CSV plus is something unreachable for cruisers.

So my escort outDPV (ok) and outDPS (not ok) cruisers at any range.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
# 116
02-01-2013, 01:40 AM
I agree.. I now have a mirror escort, out fitted with mostly cannons ( and a qunt) and it can deal WAY more damage than my assult cruiser even if I got side ways and fire all 8 with everything I got to weopons :S its not far behined but its noticeable

Dual beam banks are a bit more barable.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 117
02-01-2013, 06:40 AM
That there is a problem, you shouldn't be able to sit at 10k and out dps a beam cruiser with cannons in a escort, the damage loss should be too great. The real issue is that in theory, unbuffed damage of a beam ship or cannon ship is pretty equal, in practice the beams suffer so greatly from energy drain they are lucky to do half the damage.
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Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1
# 118
02-01-2013, 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
After all this new patches and new seasons, beams are still a worthless form of firepower. It doens't matter if you are in PVP or PVE, you only deal minimal damage in comparison to cannons, or torpedos. Its useless against players now because they can heal faster than you can deal damage. Its the opposite affect with the cannons. They deal damage faster than you can heal. With that type of imbalance, it makes most of the ships on the Fed side oppsolete in comparison to KDF and cruisers lacking extra weapon slots, Tac BOFF slots, or cannons oppsolete in comparison to escorts. As a cruiser in a PVP match, all you can do is heal. You can't go 1 on 1 with an escort because he will mop the floor with you. He can deal damage to you with his rappid cannon fire faster than you can heal yourself, yet you can barely scratch his hull with your inefficient beams because cryptic has made things to where escorts can heal themselves just as fast as cruisers. If you are lucky to get his shield down he can turn and burn, leaving you in the dust because his engines are way more powerful than yours. If your ship don't have the higher than LT Tac Boff slots, cannons, carries fighters, or have more than two weapons consoles, then you are just going to be another target magnet for those carriers cannons.
i use 4 beams and 4 torps along with assimilated tractor beam, disable shield systems and a tractor doff. i have no problems with taking out shields and destroying most enemies in seconds.yes dps is what you want my beams do 1100 damage with 650 dps after skills and gear
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 119
02-01-2013, 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Love how most of these turn into cannons vs beams arguments.
I think its actually kinda sad. I can't help but feel most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage. And yet... when you tell them exactly how they can alter their build to trade in tankyness for DPS they almost always backtrack.

Its even worse when you hear so many lamenting how shaving off a few extra energy cost off their weapons would "make it all alright". Wether its a needed change or not its clear a lot of people are incorrectly thinking that implementing such a change will make their cruisers death machines. That's so wrong its not even funny. Its more of the same really, they don't understand that any significant changes in their DPS potential has to be accompanied by a similar change in their build and playstyle.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 02-01-2013 at 07:57 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 120
02-01-2013, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I think its actually kinda sad. I can't help but feel most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage. And yet... when you tell them exactly how they can alter their build to trade in tankyness for DPS they almost always backtrack.

Its even worse when you hear so many lamenting how shaving off a few extra energy cost off their weapons would "make it all alright". Wether its a needed change or not its clear a lot of people are incorrectly thinking that implementing such a change will make their cruisers death machines. That's so wrong its not even funny. Its more of the same really, they don't understand that any significant changes in their DPS potential has to be accompanied by a similar change in their build and playstyle.
You just changed a cannon vs beam post into a cruiser vs escort post. Keep it beam vs cannons, a beam escort and a cannon escort completely unbuffed has a massive difference in damage potential, the weapon should be balanced, the tactical nature of the ship should be the difference.

I primarily run a tac escort, but I have a tanky eng cruiser. Doing combat log parsing reveals the real issues between the two. You have to go into the details, not the overall dps, most people have no clue how to use a combat log.
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