Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 311
03-22-2013, 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by valoreah View Post
Run EPtW3, keep Aux2Bat up

Beams do fine, it's just you have to know what you're doing.
Beams do fine, you just have to give up a big chunk of survivability and exploit blatantly broken abilities in order to reach the level of performance that your weapons are rated for i.e. the level of performance that cannons can reach with next to no effort.

(fixed)
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 488
# 312
03-22-2013, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Why do you assume that anyone thinks about PvP?
Because its the only place you could get away with stacking an engineering captain with an engineering heavy boff layout with an engineering console layout and actually achieve any success.

And that's only if PvP offers any objectives which a bunker build is beneficial for.

From PvE, the closest example might be raid tanking, but there's no equivalent to that here.

Simply put, you're crazy if you think you can get away with min-maxing for defense. Even in other MMOs, it only works in very specific circumstances. Tanking anything else requires a better balance of offense versus defense, or else your squishies end up doing the tanking. This is nothing new, though I'm not surprised the WoW-crowd struggles with it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 41
# 313
03-23-2013, 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Beams do fine, you just have to give up a big chunk of survivability and exploit blatantly broken abilities in order to reach the level of performance that your weapons are rated for i.e. the level of performance that cannons can reach with next to no effort.

(fixed)
Aux2Bat isn't even required, it's just that it's a bit more weapon power anyway (since it's not like you'll ever be using Aux above 25) and, well, is brokenly useful with Technicians. EptW3 x2 (or EptW3/EptW2 on a ship without enough slots) is perfectly fine too if you can't pull that off, and even if you can't spring for three Technicians you can probably get at least one Warp Core Engineer. Then there's other things like the Omega Weapon proc, and...

Yeah, Cannons are easier to get going, but so what? That's the whole point of an escort. If you can't make beams work in a cruiser, it's because you're bad at the game, not because they don't work. That, and there's more to flying a cruiser (or being an Engineering captain for that matter) than layering pointless defenses. This isn't space WoW, there's no pure tanks, you have to consider for and plan for your offense too.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 202
# 314
03-23-2013, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.

I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.

A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95


This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.

But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
I had some time to think about this. Just some quick questions for you...

You have the 10 power going back into the system after the first shot of A1-C1. I thought that the power did not go back until a weapon's power cycle was finished. So after Beam B finishes its firing cycle of one shot per second, after the 5 second mark the 10 power is supposed to return. Weren't we told (and taken with a grain of salt) that when a weapon (Beam A) fires at, let's say 100 weapon power, every shot (Beam A-1 to Beam A-4) from that weapon would be at that weapon power level, and the next weapon (Beam B) would fire at the reduced power level? That's how it works for cannons, isn't it? If it is, are you suggested that there is a separate drain mechanic (not meaning the -10 per beam weapon) for beams?

An unequipped Spiral Wave disruptor (in my inventory at ESD) lists its damage as 237 and the DPS as 189.6. 237 divided by 1.25 equals 189.6. A Beam's firing cycle is 4 seconds and its power cycle is 5 seconds. If that Spiral Wave did 237 damage per shot, it would have a total damage (in its firing cycle) of 948. When you divide that by 5 seconds for the power cycle, you get the same as the listed DPS, 189.6. The method you listed (with A2-4 firing at 115 weapon power), suggests the the rating of the (unequipped) Spiral Wave disruptor is actually 222.75 with a DPS of 178.2. Since the unequipped weapon damage and DPS is supposed to be the baseline (minus skills and consoles, that is); shouldn't the ingame tooltip be reflecting this?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 315
03-23-2013, 03:21 AM
I did some testing yesterday with power transfer rates and I learned the following:

1: Power transfer rate has no effect on drain when power below 125 (my power went from 123 down to 73 as expected), this the community established and was thus expected

2: Having run this I ran EPS power transfer and fired off 3 volleys at 3 second intervals (at about 150 power) and about 50% of my shots were fired at 100-105 power, 3: I repeated the same test with EPtW and found about 50% of shots were firing at 93 power, so I investigated further.

I proceeded to put 2 EPS Flow regulator Mk XI (Purple) on my ship (+150% power transfer rate) and repeated the above tests

1: As above
2: 50% of shots around 115-120
3: 50% of shots around 100-105

I ran a fourth test after this to see what EPtW and EPS power transfer would do with the extra transfer rate, the result was all shots fired between 115-125.

My conclusion is that Bareel's understanding of overcapping is correct however the community's understanding of power transfer vs drain is not quite right and that power transfer has an effect on overcapping.

I would like to ask members of the community to run the same tests and prove or disprove my results
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 316
03-23-2013, 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asimosa View Post
Yeah, Cannons are easier to get going, but so what?
Beams have lower rated DPS. If they require significant investment to get them to work at their rated damage (I feel it's important to stress that herculean efforts are required merely to get massed beams to do what they are supposed to do, not to amplify their damage), and other weapons do not, then massed beams is a bad weapon system.

In practical terms, if I can get maximum damage out of my cannons and turrets with just tying up my ensign slots on EPTW1, and you require tying up 2 LT slot and 2 LTC slots with Aux2Batt and EPTW3 to get maximum damage out of your beams, guess which ship has more resources available for everything else like "staying alive" and "helping team mates".

Quote:
That's the whole point of an escort.
Why does everybody ready "cannon" and assume "dual cannon". Turrets are cannons. And cannons come in singles, too, which have a 180 degree firing arc and are probably the most underappreciated (not to mention cheap) weapon class. Battle cruisers with single cannons is a powerful combination.

Quote:
This isn't space WoW, there's no pure tanks, you have to consider for and plan for your offense too.
Which is why I don't use massed beams. Planning for offense means doing maximum damage with minimum investment. Presently I have exactly 1 beam array, and that's more for style than anything else (Galor with one its iconic golden spiral waves). Cannons, turrets, and Rapid Fire is simply more efficient.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 317
03-23-2013, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Snip (for finding previous info)
Well I did some further testing and got the following results from ACT

(Starting power 123, 6 beams arrays, 5 cycles under each set of conditions)

Base (no EPS consoles, no buffs) 1668
EPtW1 (No consoles) 1824
EPtW1 (1 console) 1943
EPtW1 (2 consoles) 2185
EPS (No consoles) 1979
EPS (1 console) 2233
EPS (2 consoles) 2419
EPS+EPtW1 (No consoles) 2190
EPS+EPtW (1 console) 2458
EPS+EPtW (2 consoles) 2892

So at this point I think its safe to say that Power transfer rate when overcapping has a fair impact on DPS using arrays.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 41
# 318
03-24-2013, 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post

Why does everybody ready "cannon" and assume "dual cannon".
Because on any ship you'd possibly use single cannons/turrets on, you could just use beams and do more damage because there's no piddly turrets in the equation. And the ways you'd eke out cannon damage on a cruiser are the same ones you'd use for beam damage (excepting FAW/CRF).

Cannon cruisers are fun, it they're inferior in raw numbers Uh, sorry?
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 319
03-24-2013, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asimosa View Post
Because on any ship you'd possibly use single cannons/turrets on, you could just use beams and do more damage because there's no piddly turrets in the equation. And the ways you'd eke out cannon damage on a cruiser are the same ones you'd use for beam damage (excepting FAW/CRF).

Cannon cruisers are fun, it they're inferior in raw numbers Uh, sorry?
CSV and CRF are less iffy, and generally more efficient damage dealers than beam abilities.

As for turrets, they eat less power than beams, can have higher effective DPS under many circumstances, and work much better with DEM than beams do.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 727
# 320
03-24-2013, 04:40 AM
Cannon cruisers....:

-are much more fun
-are much easier to use
-do basically the same dmg or about the same sometimes more depending on your flight style
-avoid this stupid broadsiding stuff which is totally not canon
-are much cheaper if you have no access to fleet weapons
-with scatter volley and rapid fire are better than fire at will. They allow you to really focus the targets you want and dont hit still healed gates and transformers normally and give you aggro and stuff



Believe me you'll like your cruiser much more with a cannon build. Its sad because i really like the faw lightshow but in the end its not really effective. Just switch to cannons until cryptic actually fixed the beam situation.
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