Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 136
# 11
01-28-2013, 09:34 AM
Quote:
But FAW and CSV are different. If you're rolling FAW into CSV, you're making a Beam Cone Attack and losing the Beam AoE Attack. Somebody that was used to using FAW to grab aggro or even just to spam the spam around them would run into issues...they've lost the 360 potential arc of their attack (and if the Cone was facing Fore, the Aft Beams would not fire).
Then perhaps the option is to leave it like this:

Scatter Volley: Works like Scatter Volley does now, but includes all energy weapons capable of firing in the forward cone arc.

Fire at Will: Works like FAW does now, but includes turrets. Or maybe it just works for beams like it does now, as it won't matter much.

Rapid Fire: Works like Rapid Fire for all energy weapons in their respective arcs.
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Last edited by voxlagind; 01-28-2013 at 09:37 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,236
# 12
01-28-2013, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxlagind View Post
Then perhaps the option is to leave it like this:

Scatter Volley: Works like Scatter Volley does now, but includes all energy weapons capable of firing in the forward cone arc.

Fire at Will: Works like FAW does now, but includes turrets. Or maybe it just works for beams like it does now, as it won't matter much.

Rapid Fire: Works like Rapid Fire for all energy weapons in their respective arcs.
Okay, and not trying to be a ballbuster here (I definitely think Energy Weapons need love in this sense - Beam Cone and Cannon AoE are even things I mentioned early)...it's more a case of trying to flesh all of this out...

...what about weapon power drain from using the attacks with the different weapons? Those Arrays are going to chew that up for your Cannons....
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 136
# 13
01-28-2013, 04:46 PM
I really don't know much about how to balance and redesign everything, I just know that there are 6 energy weapon classes, and only half of those are really useful.

Honestly, it's the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier that's bothering me at the moment. I've been taking it into PvP, and realizing that there isn't a weapon class that suits the ship.

I'm finding that my overall damage and dps are nearly the same when using DHC's and single cannons. Obviously the DHC's deal a considerable amount greater damage, but the single cannons hit the targets with much greater uptime.

The problem is:

I turn too slow for DHC's, so my uptime is terrible.
I turn too fast for single cannons to offer a benefit that they wouldn't give to a much slower and more defensive ship.

What I need is something with a greater firing arc than dual heavy cannons with less damage, but a lesser firing arc than single cannons with more damage.

It makes me sad that there is a Dual Cannon already in the game, sitting at the ready, that EVERY player knows not to use because DHC's are vastly surperior with no downside by comparison.

More than anything, this is what I want. Some sort of consideration given to the ships who fight like escorts and turn like cruisers. Right now, ships like these gain a small amount of survivability and lose a large amount of damage dealt.

It needs to be fixed.
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Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 46
# 14
01-28-2013, 06:21 PM
I skimmed this post, for the most part. One thing I can agree with is increasing Dual Cannon targeting, but only to about 60 degrees. DHC have 10% crit damage right? They have the same "dps" in the description, but that's only because they don't calculate acc/crit stats, only rate of fire and base damage. Dual Cannons could be useful for ships at that don't turn so great, but don't want to be a broadside/beam ship.

However, don't rule out single cannons. I think single cannons are roughly 20% less dps than DHC, but have 180 degree targeting. If you have single cannons + turrets and perhaps the wide angle torp / ferengi missiles, you can pretty much do the same broadside idea, because the smallest targeting arc is 180. You would have more forward damage than a beam ship too. Moving increases defense = get hit/crit less. It can be more versatile having more forward damage when needed and the option to broadside/keep moving. One build I've used on a cruiser is Fore: 2 DBB + 1BA + 1Torp. Aft: 3BA + Kinetic Cutting Beam. It's a good mix of forward/broadside damage.

I understand the desire to have something more like Fire at Will for cannons and something like Rapid Fire for beams. It would be a nice feature, but it would change too many builds. It would be neat because you could mix beams/cannons and not have to have multiple boff skills for different weapon types.

Maybe the answer is having the [Arc] mod on energy weapons, limited to 1x and only on purples or something. 45-->60. 90-->105. 180-->195. 250-->265. I think it would benefit the narrow arc weapons more, but that's sort of the point, right?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,236
# 15
01-29-2013, 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxlagind View Post
Honestly, it's the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier that's bothering me at the moment.
Yeah, I saw the post in the build thread. I've been trying to search the forums for some answers to some of the mechanics involved in what you described there.

The loss of the turret, going from APB1 to APO3, going from DEM3 to DEM2, +5 Weapon Power, Pets, and that nagging knowledge that you're squishier.

With them both being AtB builds, I was trying to find an answer to whether the APB1/DEM3 would actually result in more damage than the APO3/DEM2 - just because of that additional shield penetrating damage against lowered hull resistance. Even with folks running TT(s), there would be gaps as well as nuking that ate the TT(s)...I was even going to ask that question in a new thread - but I guess it's fine asking here, eh?

TBH, when I see a TR of 12 - I think 90 degree arcs and Sci Captains/Sci Vessels (the 12 being right between the 13 of the RSV and 11 of the DSSV). Which tends to get me into thinking Torps or DBB/Torps.

45 DHCs/DCs, 90 DBBs/Torps, 180 SCs, 250 BAs, 360 Turrets, "Mines".

Outside of Turrets and Mines, knowing how I can manage a ship based on the turn rate - it pretty much lines up the weapons (and how I manage a ship, lol - it's rare that I sport DHCs - I spend too much time in PvE where the NPCs sit there waiting for me to kill them instead of moving around like players do and it's made me lazy in my piloting).

Course, DBBs/Torps is a form of rainbow...and it would get weird doing something along the following lines for most:

TT1, BO2, CRF2, APO3
TS1, THY2

EPtS1, AtB1, DEM2
EPtA1, AtB1

HE1

Fore: DBB, Torp, SC, SC Aft: 3x Turrets

But...that's damn squishy with just EPtS, HE, and a TT to help out while you have shields.

To go Torps to the Wall, you'd need to drop the Techs for PWOs; but you could do something akin to:

TT1, THY2, DPB2, APO3
EPtS1, RSP1, EWP1
ET1, AtS1

TSS1, HE2
PH1


Where you could MAS the EWP, and look at Trans/Plasma/Tric for Torps/Mines. Maybe drop HE2 to HE1, drop TSS1, and add TBR1 for some mine/targetable defense, etc, etc, etc.

But I'm guessing you've looked at those various possibilities and felt pretty damn meh about them...

...which brought us to this discussion:

The 90 arc gap on Cannons, DBB not benefiting from RF. If either of those existed, you'd likely be golden for what you're trying to do...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,226
# 16
01-30-2013, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Except you wouldn't. Overlap doesn't occur on arcs below 180 degrees.
A 250 arc weapon only misses out on 110 degrees. 135 fore would mean 25 degrees where they overlap, 12.5 degrees at a forward angle.

If you're able to keep targets in a 12.5 degree cone in a slower turning cruiser, you should be rewarded somehow.

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 46
# 17
01-30-2013, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
A 250 arc weapon only misses out on 110 degrees. 135 fore would mean 25 degrees where they overlap, 12.5 degrees at a forward angle.

If you're able to keep targets in a 12.5 degree cone in a slower turning cruiser, you should be rewarded somehow.
That is assuming the target only takes up 1 degree of space. I use DBB in front and BA in rear and I can hit a Cube, Unimatrix Vessel or Gateway with both at the same time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 180
# 18
01-30-2013, 05:53 PM
Well, my question is why aren't there weapons that are specific for each class of ships?
An example: Escorts have access to dual cannons. The only exception to that rule is the Dreadnought. Why not make weapons that are specifically for Cruisers and Sci vessels?

I'm not saying "Get rid of the weapons types we have now." I'm saying add more weapon types, with weapons that are ship class specific.
"Correction. Humans have rules in war. Rules that make victory a little harder to achieve, in my opinion."
Elim Garak
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 46
# 19
01-30-2013, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by csgtmyork View Post
Well, my question is why aren't there weapons that are specific for each class of ships?
An example: Escorts have access to dual cannons. The only exception to that rule is the Dreadnought. Why not make weapons that are specifically for Cruisers and Sci vessels?

I'm not saying "Get rid of the weapons types we have now." I'm saying add more weapon types, with weapons that are ship class specific.
I would like to see maybe a Pulse Cannon or something for cruisers. Almost like an energy torpedo. Has a few seconds between shots, but can do nice energy damage. Maybe Science vessels could get a beam that is basically the same as a normal beam, but its attack is almost equal to Beam Overload1, but has several seconds between firing and takes a bit of energy.
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