Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,477
# 101
01-30-2013, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
aux2sif. at high aux power you get a heal and a resist every 15 secs................
Personally I find high shield power/high end ES (broken or not) is the most powerful Boff skill in the game imo.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 102
01-30-2013, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
So is it for sci ships and cruisers.
Neither is nearly as dependent on a 45 degree arc to do their primary function.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,477
# 103
01-30-2013, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Do APB2, APD2, and APO1 all have an equal value? Not necessarily on the same ship, but is there an APB2/APD2 + XYZ that has equal value to APO1 + XYZ?

Does APO2 have any value when you can get APO3 for the same slot?

Do APB3, APD3, and APO3 all have an equal value in a similar fashion to APB2/APD2/APO1?

That's where the balancing should be done, no? At least initially, no?

Man, it's like the Beam Array discussions. People always want to compare DHCs on Escorts to Beam Arrays on Cruisers. How about looking at both DHCs and Beam Arrays on Escorts?

Do Beam Arrays + XYZ on an Escort have equal value to DHCs + XYZ on an Escort? Are they balanced there or not?

It's never like that - the discussions are always comparing apples to oranges. It's like that with the ability discussion here. Why not the discussion of does TT1 have equal value to BtE1 given certain circumstances?

Balance things at "Level 1" - balance things at "Level 2" - balance things at "Level 3"... this trying to balance things right off the back at "Level 9000" when things haven't been balanced 1-8999... it's no wonder that there's always going to be issues.
Depends really, the debuffs of APB3/APD3 have the potential to allow for more overall damage from the ff of a team. It's keeping the debuffs up is the issue since TT can clear them. For example, for a well timed phasics build I'd rather have APB for the debuff than APO using a Sci B'rel.

Edit: Also APB1/APD1 are Lt slots, not Lt Com like APO1 is.

Last edited by p2wsucks; 01-30-2013 at 10:46 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 104
01-30-2013, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Personally I find high shield power/high end ES (broken or not) is the most powerful Boff skill in the game imo.
extends is not broken. second lets compare the up time for aux2sif 3 and omega 3. how many heals are being sent out verse how many times can an omega be hit. i can get resist boosted way more then what omega can do. it it hard to comapire the 2 really. i was going to try to tie up my argument but lost my train of thought. but to try to attack omega as a skill with doffs to lower cd is very stupid. people say what do you lose or gain. same can be said for engys and sci when they roll thier own doff that lower cd to global. each class gained to be honest. a good example is my engy oddy.

epts 1 x2 extends 1 2 rsp 1 et 3 aux2sif 3

how could i have made that possible? so the issue is not mainly with omega is with the doffs that make it possible. really go to your sci's and engy's take off ur cd doffs and look how differnt your spec would be.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 105
01-30-2013, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Neither is nearly as dependent on a 45 degree arc to do their primary function.
Cannon-Vesta.
Cannon-Excelsior.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,148
# 106
01-30-2013, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Depends really, the debuffs of APB3/APD3 have the potential to allow for more overall damage from the ff of a team. It's keeping the debuffs up is the issue since TT can clear them. For example, for a well timed phasics build I'd rather have APB for the debuff than APO using a Sci B'rel.
Which is where I'm saying that if an equal value exists - then one can say the abilities are better balanced...if one doesn't, then a problem exists.

Thing with APB, though - is all the TT clearing the debuff. Course, if folks aren't running it, aren't DOFFing it, don't have multiple copies, or somebody's not sharing... well, they're just like a NPC waiting to die.

APB for Trans or even Plasma DoTs can definitely be fun. Course, TT clears APB and for the Plasma - spammed HE will remove them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Edit: Also APB1/APD1 are Lt slots, not Lt Com like APO1 is.
I went with APB2/APD2 vs. APO1. But like I pointed out, are the XXX2 versions of Cmdr abilities mostly pointless since it's easy to train them yourself or get somebody else to do it?

Should the 3's be Cmdr, 2's LCdr, and 1's LT for those abilities as well? Because if it's a case they balanced APB3/APD3 against APO2 based on APO3 not being common...they did it wrong.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,477
# 107
01-30-2013, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
extends is not broken. second lets compare the up time for aux2sif 3 and omega 3. how many heals are being sent out verse how many times can an omega be hit. i can get resist boosted way more then what omega can do. it it hard to comapire the 2 really. i was going to try to tie up my argument but lost my train of thought. but to try to attack omega as a skill with doffs to lower cd is very stupid. people say what do you lose or gain. same can be said for engys and sci when they roll thier own doff that lower cd to global. each class gained to be honest. a good example is my engy oddy.

epts 1 x2 extends 1 2 rsp 1 et 3 aux2sif 3

how could i have made that possible? so the issue is not mainly with omega is with the doffs that make it possible. really go to your sci's and engy's take off ur cd doffs and look how differnt your spec would be.
Fyi, Idk b/c I haven't tested, but I've heard from more than 1 source ES can be stacked to break the 75% resist cieling.

When I addressed the APO cooldown issue, it was to those who expressed concern regarding APO. It currently is broken in that it's resists have been reported to last longer than the 5 seconds it's supposed to have. My general point is the main issue imo isn't that APO does thing too much, it's that it does them too often now.

Generally regarding cooldown doffs, I meantioned earlier in the thread a couple of things.

1st is an old Dev (heretic) stated the design goal was to have max effect be from 3 purples. I mentioned for some doffs this isn't the case as they seem to reduce timers 2x per Doff.

The second is I don't think cooldown effects should stack more than 1x per Boff cooldown. For example w/a single aux2batt 3tech doff build I can have rsp1 = rsp2, and near perfect uptime on epts3. I could have perfect uptime on DEM, etc. Even repairs such as HE/TSS go from 45 seconds to 31.5 (45*.7) w/just 1 cooldown. Using epta there's no drawback to the aux either.

Also, some are just broken as I mentioned before including KDF Vet shield vamp being effected by tech doffs, and the PSWTorp being overly effected by photonic doffs (I can get this cooldown to 12 seconds ...)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,148
# 108
01-30-2013, 10:58 AM
Never mind, you answered this in a later post.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 01-30-2013 at 11:05 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 109
01-30-2013, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Cannon-Vesta.
1) The Vesta is not a ship class.
2) The Vesta is a Sci ship first and foremost. Dealing damage is not it's primary function.
3) Cannon-vesta has the option to take APO 1 in the Ltc slot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Cannon-Excelsior.
1) The Excelsior is not a ship class.
2) Cannon-Excelsior has a 180 degree firing arc. (4x as wide)
3) Burst damage is not the primary, or sole, function of the Excelsior.
4) The Excelsior can take APO 1 in the Ltc Tac slot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum
Neither is nearly as dependent on a 45 degree arc to do their primary function.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,477
# 110
01-30-2013, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Which is where I'm saying that if an equal value exists - then one can say the abilities are better balanced...if one doesn't, then a problem exists.

Thing with APB, though - is all the TT clearing the debuff. Course, if folks aren't running it, aren't DOFFing it, don't have multiple copies, or somebody's not sharing... well, they're just like a NPC waiting to die.

APB for Trans or even Plasma DoTs can definitely be fun. Course, TT clears APB and for the Plasma - spammed HE will remove them.



I went with APB2/APD2 vs. APO1. But like I pointed out, are the XXX2 versions of Cmdr abilities mostly pointless since it's easy to train them yourself or get somebody else to do it?

Should the 3's be Cmdr, 2's LCdr, and 1's LT for those abilities as well? Because if it's a case they balanced APB3/APD3 against APO2 based on APO3 not being common...they did it wrong.
For the 2nd part I haven't crunched numbers to know and it's very dependent on builds.

For the 1st part there's a benefit to EBC and using a Sci Captain w/an SNB in one's back pocket. Also, APB has a fairly short cooldown.
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