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# 161
01-30-2013, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
So let get this ...

Operate Kit is now WORTHLESS if you are using a Caitain/Ferasan?
No. The two powers will just not be useable back-to-back any longer. Whatever the standard cooldown is (I haven't investigated it yet), triggering either will cause the other to go on a cooldown that is a portion of that amount.

In other words, if they each have a 30sec CD, firing either will put the other on a 10-15 Cooldown. You'll still be able to use these extremely similar abilities more frequently than a non-Caitian/Ferasan, just not in rapid succession.
Jeremy Randall
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# 162
01-30-2013, 10:53 PM
Oh I forgot one. It's engineering consoles sucks. +4 power to ne ONE subsystem per console ? Diminished returns on armor consoles ?

If you think its fine, then imagine if tac consoles would be only +10% dmg each, with diminished returns on top of it. And imagine the forum explosion it would cause.
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# 163
01-30-2013, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think that's entirely the point of the design.

What you're suggesting would see Engisn slots become basically pointless for clearing anything that would in reality be used against you and would then force ships to sacrifice higher tier performance powers just to be able to clear debilitating effects.

While that might sound balanced in a "tit for tat" kind of design, I personally think it would veer into "unfun" territory where you have to slot cleanses to debuffs in the very few, precious higher tier slots you get (a total of 3 out of 12 powers for most ships).

A better direction might be to have partial cleanses vs. the fairly binary off/on design of debuffs and cleanses we have now, but I think that ship has probably set sail a long time ago.
If perhaps it was more like this, it might also be ok:

A Tier I power can negate a Tier I power, and Reduce in effectiveness other powers it defends against by 35%
A Tier II Power can negate a Tier II or lesser power and reduce in effectiveness any higher tier power by 70%
A Tier III Power can negate any power of tier III or lesser.

This would give a reason to use powers like Polarized Hull III, Tactical Team III, More reasons for Science team III and Engineering Team III.

Hazard Emitters would be similar, except concerning Plasma Dots. It could probably be changed to instead Effect an amount of Dots, including Warp plasma. Where Tier I could perhaps clear a maximum of 2 or 3 Dots. Tier II could Clear a maximum of 4 or 6 Dots. And Tier III could clear all Dots for it's Duration.

Also, Haxard Emitters really needs to decide WHAT it can clear. Because right now it can clear not only Plasma Dots, but Energy Siphon as well. I think there's more it can clear, but I can't recall the others at this time.

Also the thoughts are to change things so that it becomes more important to have ships with those slots available in a PVP situation to be able to defend against those other powers in a more worth while fashion. It would also make it so that Escorts suddenly will want those ships along with them, instead of being the "I can do it all" ships they have become lately. Including vs. PVE.
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# 164
01-30-2013, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
A quick parting note: It's actually more useful to us Devs if the posts that you guys make focus on the particular balance concern you have, detailing why you consider it an issue, and stay away from recommending fixes. While many of you have fine ideas about repairing some of the concerns the community raises, there exists a tendency to skip to the "You can fix X by doing Y" part of leaving feedback, without first explaining to us why you feel X needs to be fixed to begin with.
Makes sense.

Why I consider Tactical Team unbalanced: It redistributes shields very quickly. This is, on the one hand, strictly needed due to the extremely high spike damage out there... but on the other hand, that means everybody has it. This again renders all the powers that can be countered by Tactical Team practically useless, because, well, everybody has the counter ready.

Why I consider the Emergency Power To X abilities unbalanced: Emergency Power To shields is so much superior to the others that there is little to no incentive to take any one other. Anyone will immediately see how Emergency Power To Shields 3 is superior to Emergency Power To Weapons 3. Why would any cruiser choose the latter?

Why I consider beam weapons unbalanced: Their on-paper damage seems balanced vs others (especially the terror that is the dual heavy cannon), but the way they are applied in the game (especially the energy drain) makes them punch much less. Shouldn't a full broadside of 6-8 beams be something to be feared almost as much as a full "frontside" of 4 DHC's and 3 turrets? On top of that, there is no way to buff the damage of all your beams vs a single target like CRF does it, so it is even less a fearsome broadside.

Why I consider NPC energy weapon damage too low: NPCs that are summoned in PvP should be more than just "spam", but a real help. Some are, but only when using torpedoes. Their energy weapon damage (per installed weapon) is just happily ignored by most of us.

Why I consider Hazard Emitters unbalanced: It does so much when compared to other healing powers that virtually no ship can live without it. Again, it counters everything, is the best hull heal in the game, and gives a damage resistance bonus on top of that.

And one additional thing:

Why I consider Attack Pattern Omega unbalanced: It does, basically, everything. It is a counter for every snare, and at the same time, buffs all damage (which alone would be sufficient reason to choose it) and movement and defense. And each of these bonuses alone is equivalent to what the other attack patterns offer.

And, despite what many people may say about "team effort" etc., I strongly feel that things in space combat should be balanced for working in 1v1 combat, as there are many, many 1v1 situations in STO's PvP. 1v1 makes every issue most visible, because it nullifies the "bad team" phenomenon: If a power consistently fails to be sufficiently useful in 1v1, or when you always win with it in 1v1, then it is probably not you who is bad or awesome, but that power or weapon. 1v1 is also a lot easier to test for the developers.

As a sidenote, I believe these unbalances are what really makes PvP rather unpopular right now. Not the "neglect", not the lack of game modes, but the way how PvP makes the imbalances obvious.
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.

Last edited by sophlogimo; 01-31-2013 at 12:21 AM.
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# 165
01-31-2013, 12:30 AM
Balancing around duels is silly... it's an MMO, hard fact is that you're supposed to go out and make friends. STO is already about as close to a single-player online experience as is.

The ships are (or were originally) balanced around team roles because duel-focused setups would result in a stale sort of rock-paper-scissors.

Ironically, rewriting the game for duels would far more likely result in more player frustration with PvP, because you'd have much less power as an individual to make an impact on your team's performance.

As stands, an Engie Ody played right can tank two or three players more or less forever. Healers are intended to be far more than merely self-sufficient, though, because it allows them to fill a useful role for their team and not just for themselves. I think that's a good thing and while the ebb and flow of balancing may swing one way or the other, I wouldn't want to see that fundamentally change.

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# 166
01-31-2013, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Balancing around duels is silly...
I guess this risks derailing the debate, let's just say that to this matter, there are different opinions available.
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# 167
01-31-2013, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I guess this risks derailing the debate, let's just say that to this matter, there are different opinions available.
Ye well, sadly around these parts you are the only one who wants to balance the game around duels
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# 168
01-31-2013, 01:14 AM
I have started another thread about that:

Let us keep this one focused on to concerns of PvP balance as it is now.
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# 169
01-31-2013, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by guriphu View Post
Feline Instincts/Predatory Instincts (Caitian/Feresian ground passive).

Jump height can be used to exploit ... into the ceiling and shoot down at players without them being able to shoot you back.
1)That's no different then any other cover on a X or Y Axis.

2)Even without the jump, if your having trouble shooting why are allowing another to dedicate where you fight?

It takes two to fight. Go around, or find your cover. Problem solved. You don't have to fight them, or they have to abandon their cover to follow. "If you find your self in a fair fight, your tactics suck."

3)That's a issue with level design, and your swatting a fly with a nuke. There is a great deal of fun to be had exploring places that have absolutely nothing to do with any form of combat.

+10 Perception ... passive as good as other PvP viable ground passives, even without the dodge bonus or jump height. ...
Ground is what they're designed around. Why shouldn't they shine on the ground? They do not shine as easily in space.

I will not argue I like it, but to say it that doesn't compare side by side to Aggressive, Telepathic, Seduce, Rapture, Borg Neural Blast, Nerve Pinch, or Rapture?

Not to be rude, but it sounds to me your issue is with burst damage or game balance in general. Not with caitians or ferasans.

1: It is an Exploit attack. This means that players can carry two Expose weapons (the favored combination being the Omega gun and a pulsewave) and still Exploit their own Exposes. No other race has this level of tactical flexibility, and it confers something like a 25% increase to the player's potential average damage if played correctly
A very good reason to have one, but as you pointed out requires a certain build. What you didn't point out was why all felines under all cases shouldn't have it. Which I suspect that reason will be rooted in game balance in general, and not caitians/ferasans.

2: It is a high damage knockback attack ....
Ok, again, not to be rude: Where is the reason felines shouldn't have that abiltiy, and why is it their problem and not a problem with tacticle or general balance?

Also, Pounce is convenient for a knock back. Not that there are not at least two other ways to do it easier that are not tied to a race or class.

3: It is a gap closer that is not affected by holds and slows, duplicating the effectiveness of the Operative kit's Lunge at countering kits like Physicist, Equipment Technician, and Enemy Neutralization.
And, this is different from using any other active trait because?

Also, if your using pounce or lunge as a first option to counter holds, or weapon malfunction? I suggest you read the description on energy cells, or any direct healing ability I can think of.

4: It does not share a cooldown with Lunge, allowing for chaining them back to back for repeated knockback attacks.
That one I will not contest.

5: Its cooldown is too short. 12 seconds for Pounce, compared to one minute for Telekinesis, its closest analogous power. Note that this power benefits from Tactical Initiative, like everything else.

Solution: Put Pounce on a shared cooldown with Lunge. Make it an Expose attack. Increase its cooldown to 1 minute. Reduce its damage by 50%.
For a third time, not to be rude, but I have to ask you a question, guriphu: Do you actually play a caitian or ferasan?

It could be one second cooldown, and still wouldn't be worth using more then once for the knock back or the odd exploit.

It puts you in a odd position. More, In the time to close the gap and complete the animation you would have done more damage with any other attack in the game. Reduce the damage, increase the cool down, or really do anything but buff it and it goes from a at unique times useful or a fun party trick to nothing more then a toy.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 01-31-2013 at 01:47 AM.
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# 170
01-31-2013, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
It's because you said you survived being immobilized because your team was covering you rather than because of APO.

APO is a massive buff to survivability because of the mobility aspect of it. I can't think of any other case where one ship type has access to a defense that the others don't -- where one ship type is self-sufficient where the others aren't.

I think maybe you're not conscious of how much the omega is covering you. I know it's used for the DPS, but while it's up you have defense near 100% (less if it gets fixed, but it's still likely to be 50%+ if you aren't at a stop). If you get stopped, your defense is likely to drop to a little below 0%. In that respect, it's one of the most powerful defensive buffs in the game, since it's what allows you to speed tank.
ahh ok i see now, i use a delta for resist. dont get me wrong, if all else fails and i need to use omega i will. most times delta for a resist and omega for attacks.

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