Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,442
Enrage timers and special attacks directed at the highest threat target are sort of the key to encounter design when you what to emphasize durability and survivability. Without them, DPS is king.

This forum is full of threads that call for equalizing DPS or which suggest that tanking is irrelevant.

The solution is a design solution from a content POV, not a rebalancing of ships.

First of all, what's needed with non-trashmob enemies are special attacks that only a specced/geared tank can survive. This necessitates durability that escorts can't provide.

The second thing needed is an enrage timer. This is basically a set of penalty attacks for not killing an enemy fast enough. Once the necessity of durability has been established, you need a visceral penalty for relying solely on durability.

These don't need to be absolute but my feeling is that it could be setup so that enemies start off in a state where they can be handled by any team but at pre-triggered points 5, 10, 30 seconds into the encounter, become much harder and more lethal and deal bonus damage to primary threat targets which only tank gear can mitigate.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 659
# 2
01-30-2013, 07:55 AM
So long as PWE is satisfied with the sales volume of Master Keys they have no motivation to permit Cryptic to invest resources to overhaul the game mechanics to change how STO plays.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,567
# 3
01-30-2013, 07:58 AM
It sounds like a scenario for Escorts with speed tanks not using DHCs.

Put beams on an Escort, and they're going to do more damage than if you put them on a Cruiser. The Escort's going to have better defense than the Cruiser and take less damage from getting hit less. It wouldn't be hard to build the Escort to have enough mitigation for when it does get hit...but you're not going to be able to build the Cruiser to do the damage to compensate for the GDF you've given the NPCs.

It sounds like a scenario for Escorts with speed tanks not using DHCs.
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Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,442
# 4
01-30-2013, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It sounds like a scenario for Escorts with speed tanks not using DHCs.

Put beams on an Escort, and they're going to do more damage than if you put them on a Cruiser. The Escort's going to have better defense than the Cruiser and take less damage from getting hit less. It wouldn't be hard to build the Escort to have enough mitigation for when it does get hit...but you're not going to be able to build the Cruiser to do the damage to compensate for the GDF you've given the NPCs.

It sounds like a scenario for Escorts with speed tanks not using DHCs.
The point of a cruiser is not primarily to deal damage.

The problem is that dealing damage is too important.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,567
# 5
01-30-2013, 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
The point of a cruiser is not primarily to deal damage.

The problem is that dealing damage is too important.
Right, but you introduced a GDF aspect for the NPCs which would make damage even more important...

"This is basically a set of penalty attacks for not killing an enemy fast enough."
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,607
# 6
01-30-2013, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Right, but you introduced a GDF aspect for the NPCs which would make damage even more important...

"This is basically a set of penalty attacks for not killing an enemy fast enough."
Yeah... that only increases the value of DPS and decreases the value of tanking/support... if you can't defeat the enemy fast enough, then you make it stronger. If it gets stronger in a team situation, then the rest of the team will get even more upset that you didn't bring a Tacscort to the fight than they do now.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,131
# 7
01-30-2013, 08:30 AM
Enrage timers was one of the main reasons I stopped playing WoW. There were a lot of bull**** moments when a boss was at ~10%, but because the group wasn't "fast" enough, the boss enraged and everyone died from high damage penalty attacks, resulting in everyone feeling discouraged and rage-quitting the instance.

STO doesn't need this. This really doesn't do anything for tanks and just makes DPS even more important.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 297
# 8
01-30-2013, 08:31 AM
If you want to tank PVE mobs just put points into threat control. You'll hold aggro like no ones business, unless of course an escort is also using threat, in which case, the one with the most DPS will hold it.

If the groups set up right you should be fine.

as far as the enrage timer goes, have you ever done an STF with 5 cruisers? Personally I think an enrage timer would be a bad idea.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 426
# 9
01-30-2013, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
First of all, what's needed with non-trashmob enemies are special attacks that only a specced/geared tank can survive. This necessitates durability that escorts can't provide.
Have you seen how hard the NPCs hit in STO? There are hostiles out there that can easily hit player targets for a hundred and ten, a hundred and fifty thousand damage in one salvo.

Quote:
The second thing needed is an enrage timer. This is basically a set of penalty attacks for not killing an enemy fast enough. Once the necessity of durability has been established, you need a visceral penalty for relying solely on durability.
This just makes tanks even less valuable, as others have pointed out, simply because everyone now needs to deal as much damage as quickly as possible and that means DPS-specced escorts.


Besides which, with Cryptic's current issues, asking them to put in MORE ultra-high damage attacks is simply asking for trouble. I'm imagining a dreadnaught cruiser exploding with the red numerals "95,125,483" floating over it and disappearing happily into the aether as a tactical cube manages to crit one of its super-ultra-duper revenge torpedoes.

Moreover, with the way that the Cryptic has arranged the differences between escorts and cruisers/science ships and built the weapons layout on their heavy NPCs, the truth is that they really don't have much more survival potential than escorts. It doesn't matter if you have 50,000 hull and I have 27,000 hull if that tactical cube is flinging around 75,000 damage torpedoes.

Perhaps, in a sense, your idea might be viable if, instead, heavy NPCs had a large number of small-damage weapons (say a tactical cube was carrying the equivalent of, I don't know, 40x Mk XII Plasma Beam Array + 5x Mk XII Plasma Torpedo) and aggro was not a function of whether the Cube chose to focus on you, but how many of those weapons it chose to turn in your direction at once; ultimate agro would be the cube firing at you with every weapon, whereas a more balanced situation would have the cube firing eight plasma beams and a torpedo at every ship in play at once.

This would significantly reduce the value of escort kiting and allow heavy tanks with aggro to significantly benefit the team.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 621
# 10
01-30-2013, 09:07 AM
Before anything like an enrage timer could remotely work, many of the NPC ships would have to rework. As it stands right now, on an Elite STF the Borg already have an advantage by cheapshoting the players at will. That's all we need now is an already cheating AI to get penalty attacks.

Not to mention this would make cruisers completely useless in STF; it was already a DPS race to get the bonus but now you must beat the enrage timer. Only Escorts need apply.
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