Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 477
# 11
01-30-2013, 10:45 AM
Range advantage for cruisers and some science abilities
Quote:
Originally Posted by meimeitoo View Post
They need to stop the exodus, fast. Here's 2 ways:
* Cut Upgrade Dilithium cost in half;
* Undo any and all XP nerfs.
And, as a general rule of thumb, don't keep treating your customers like your enemy, that you feel you have to stifle/nerf at every corner.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 12
01-30-2013, 11:03 AM
NPCs need to be a lot stronger and dangerous. More beam/turret damage is required in PvE, because it's indeed a content related issue, not a ship one. Hive onslaught is a step in the right direction but it remains somewhat easy for escorts to tank dreadnoughts, because dreadnoughts are big but also do very little damage, except kinetic damage, which is easy to tank.

Currently, NPCs dealing some damage are cruiser level ones (spheres in STFs). I don't know why the devs made this decision, it makes bosses easy fights where you only need DPS to complete the mission. I just wish the new content and the admiral rank will give the system designers some time to fix that, to make sure every ship can play a significant role in STFs.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 88
# 13
01-30-2013, 11:11 AM
Cant cruisers just have an inbuilt + x amount of threat to help them draw aggro? The devs should be able to adjust this later on if needed.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,669
# 14
01-30-2013, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Right, but you introduced a GDF aspect for the NPCs which would make damage even more important...

"This is basically a set of penalty attacks for not killing an enemy fast enough."
You have to both. Otherwise survivability trumps damage. The enrage timer is a part of how you make damage a job with objectives.

Otherwise, everyone will opt for low damage high survivability if you increase the value of survivability.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,669
# 15
01-30-2013, 12:37 PM
Personally, I think a mitigation/tank build should do LESS damage than current cruisers do but not even the most OMG super-attack getting a critical should be able to do more than, say, 10% damage to hull in one hit.

And it should be on an exponential curve so that escorts can't handle more than 3-5 regular hits from a boss of even level. Whereas a tank without a healer can handle 10 and possibly last indefinitely with heals.

This stat then needs to be less effective at damage mitigation on PvP maps but should provide almost total crit immunity there.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 16
01-30-2013, 12:39 PM
I think we just need more STFs like Hive space elite where Cruisers, sci ships, and carriers all can be more useful then escorts there. Bortasqu really shines in that STF as it can put out escort DPS with DHC, but wont die nearly as much.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 60
# 17
01-30-2013, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
You have to both. Otherwise survivability trumps damage. The enrage timer is a part of how you make damage a job with objectives.

Otherwise, everyone will opt for low damage high survivability if you increase the value of survivability.
Absolutely agreed. The issue with the game, currently, =is the simple lack of intelligent players, because you really don't need to specialize in anything other than lolrollfacedps to go anywhere. On top of that the DPS doesn't have to be necissarily high. This is why tac officers with dual beams in starcruisers can actually get somewhere. The game, as it is, lacks the need to specialization, it lacks the need for any particular skill.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 775
# 18
01-30-2013, 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Enrage timers and special attacks directed at the highest threat target are sort of the key to encounter design when you what to emphasize durability and survivability. Without them, DPS is king.

This forum is full of threads that call for equalizing DPS or which suggest that tanking is irrelevant.

The solution is a design solution from a content POV, not a rebalancing of ships.

First of all, what's needed with non-trashmob enemies are special attacks that only a specced/geared tank can survive. This necessitates durability that escorts can't provide.

The second thing needed is an enrage timer. This is basically a set of penalty attacks for not killing an enemy fast enough. Once the necessity of durability has been established, you need a visceral penalty for relying solely on durability.

These don't need to be absolute but my feeling is that it could be setup so that enemies start off in a state where they can be handled by any team but at pre-triggered points 5, 10, 30 seconds into the encounter, become much harder and more lethal and deal bonus damage to primary threat targets which only tank gear can mitigate.
Phenomenally bad idea IMO, I despised these mechanics in WOW and other similar games and would never want to see those mechanics and a stricter trinity setup in this game. Just my quick 2 cents on the subject.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 869
# 19
01-30-2013, 01:14 PM
Well, one solution, at least for science, is to just make science abilities more powerful.

I mean, if an escort gets hit with a Tyken's rift or an energy drain and loses half or more of its power for the during the duration, it is in pretty bad shape. But if it loses a small fraction of its power (which is common), then it can continue blowing up cruisers and science ships.

Same thing with a gravity well. If they literally suck in light vessels and are very difficult to escape, it is hard to point those cannons or torpedoes in the right direction. If they just slow down an escort and so a moderate amount of damage, it is no good.

The game is incredibly unbalanced. Escorts can do massive burst damage and tank pretty well. The way to balance the game is not to make science vessels or cruisers do more damage (we don't want to make everything an escort, that would be bad game design) but rather to make cruisers and science vessels better at what they do do, tank, heal, crowd control, energy drain, et cetera.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,580
# 20
01-30-2013, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Enrage timers and special attacks directed at the highest threat target are sort of the key to encounter design when you what to emphasize durability and survivability. Without them, DPS is king.

This forum is full of threads that call for equalizing DPS or which suggest that tanking is irrelevant.

The solution is a design solution from a content POV, not a rebalancing of ships.

First of all, what's needed with non-trashmob enemies are special attacks that only a specced/geared tank can survive. This necessitates durability that escorts can't provide.

The second thing needed is an enrage timer. This is basically a set of penalty attacks for not killing an enemy fast enough. Once the necessity of durability has been established, you need a visceral penalty for relying solely on durability.

These don't need to be absolute but my feeling is that it could be setup so that enemies start off in a state where they can be handled by any team but at pre-triggered points 5, 10, 30 seconds into the encounter, become much harder and more lethal and deal bonus damage to primary threat targets which only tank gear can mitigate.
I like the idea of special attacks that only cruisers can survive. This would reinforce the role of an escort/raider as a "raider" and not as a tanker which is what cruisers should be doing exclusively against large battleships. However, I don't agree with you that cruiser base dps or inherent ship weapons power shouldn't be rebalanced. There's plenty of evidence on the shows and movies to support that during escorts v cruiser toe to toe battles, assuming both have shields up, escorts were no match for cruiser battleships. Cruisers had less maneuverability but had more dps and tanking power because they had thicker hulls and larger beam arrays than escorts.

Edit: Also, I don't agree with an enrage timer. That would reinforce the need for higher dps which again favors escorts, and we're back to square 1.

Cruisers should also be able to shoot over longer distances.

Last edited by knuhteb5; 01-30-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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