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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 31
01-30-2013, 01:02 PM
Wow, the cruiser fan boys don't stop do they?

Horrible examples of space combat.
Defiant vs. Dominon flagships? Throw your precious cruisers against it and lets see what happens. Dead long before the Defiants.

Galaxy class vs retired BoP? This is an argument for cruiser superiority?

How about Lakota vs Defiant? Defiant vs.. any other ship.

It was referred to many times on the show as the most heavily armed warship in the quadrant. Its weapons systems were, in canon, more efficient than beam arrays. It was only called an escort because they federation has never called any vessel a warship.

Escorts are made and designed to fight, they are doing to be superior at it. Game balance does have to happen, but its not the ships that are heavily flawed, it is the game content. Missions where a cruiser could use its resources and crew need to happen, but won't because pew pew is easier than thinking outside the box.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 859
# 32
01-30-2013, 01:08 PM
I don't think ship types in and of themselves need to be adjusted, but the way PVE works in general.

What most of the 'everything is fine' crowd fails to understand when they point out that cruisers tank, is that it doesn't matter how much more of a beating cruisers can take. You only have to tank 'good enough'. That's it. Cruisers could be near invincible and it wouldn't matter, as long as that escort can take the beating necessary while still dishing out far more damage than a cruiser could ever hope to do you have effectively rendered the cruisers a handicap to getting the STF done asap.

DPS should not be king, and neither should healing, CC, or tanking. There should be roles for all them to play, but as it is, there really isn't.
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Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,577
# 33
01-30-2013, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilchibiclari View Post
A pulsed cannon shot is like whacking something with a hammer, while a continuous beam is like pressing the hammer against the object. For the same amount of energy, the pulsed shot has a higher peak.

One thing that I think we need is to have 360 degree beam turrets to match with the existing cannon turrets. The damage would be scaled such that running all-turrets would give you less damage than an all-beam-array broadside, but more damage than facing the enemy and hitting him with only the forward beam arrays. This would also make a setup with Dual Beam Banks forward and Beam Turrets aft viable as a beam counterpart to the Dual Cannons / Cannon Turrets setup--you would get less damage overall than the cannons setup except at long range, but you would have a 90 degree forward cone instead of 45 degree and could use beam BOFF abilities. This would go a long way towards addressing the main weakness of beam weapons--the fact that you can only use your fore and aft weapons together in a broadside attack where your torpedoes and other forward-facing abilities are facing AWAY from the enemy.

Another possibility would be a broadside-only torpedo launcher, for shooting torpedoes at an enemy during a broadside beam strike. Instead of firing only in the fore/aft 90 degree cone, it would fire in the broadside arc (e.g. anywhere that is more than 60 degrees away from your fore/aft). You would need to have a fore, aft, and broadside torpedo launcher mounted (i.e. 3 weapons) in order to obtain near-360-degree torpedo coverage, which in practice would mean that you would have to sacrifice one of your beams to mount it (e.g. 3 beams / 1 torp fore and 2 beams / 1 regular torp / 1 broadside torp aft).
That is a very bad example, energy is energy whether it be a focused ammount in a small package or a stetched ammount is a long stream. A cannon shot vs a beam is more like saying what does more dmg a bullet traveling high speed or a bullet the length of a mile traveling the same speed, while we do have to factor out the weight, density and inertia of a bullet, because we are talking about energy and not a solid object like a bullet. Either way the same given ammount of energy is delivered on target and therefore should suffer the same results.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,258
# 34
01-30-2013, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
I don't think ship types in and of themselves need to be adjusted, but the way PVE works in general.

What most of the 'everything is fine' crowd fails to understand when they point out that cruisers tank, is that it doesn't matter how much more of a beating cruisers can take. You only have to tank 'good enough'. That's it. Cruisers could be near invincible and it wouldn't matter, as long as that escort can take the beating necessary while still dishing out far more damage than a cruiser could ever hope to do you have effectively rendered the cruisers a handicap to getting the STF done asap.

DPS should not be king, and neither should healing, CC, or tanking. There should be roles for all them to play, but as it is, there really isn't.
If we assume that escorts will always have more dps because the devs prefer it that way, then I guess I could settle for restructuring PVE missions to favor all ship classes, not just escorts because DPS is king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
Wow, the cruiser fan boys don't stop do they?

Horrible examples of space combat.
Defiant vs. Dominon flagships? Throw your precious cruisers against it and lets see what happens. Dead long before the Defiants.

Galaxy class vs retired BoP? This is an argument for cruiser superiority?

How about Lakota vs Defiant? Defiant vs.. any other ship.

It was referred to many times on the show as the most heavily armed warship in the quadrant. Its weapons systems were, in canon, more efficient than beam arrays. It was only called an escort because they federation has never called any vessel a warship.

Escorts are made and designed to fight, they are doing to be superior at it. Game balance does have to happen, but its not the ships that are heavily flawed, it is the game content. Missions where a cruiser could use its resources and crew need to happen, but won't because pew pew is easier than thinking outside the box.
I do concede that, at the time, the defiant had the strongest weapons in the fleet. However, don't forget that we're now in the 25th century, and the Odyssey is the new flagship. Are you going to try to convince me that the tact. Oddyssey should be outclassed by a fleet defiant? Difficult to say which exactly is more powerful, but a cruiser designed for attack power should have more weapons power than a fleet defiant that is, what, 1/5 the size?
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Last edited by knuhteb5; 01-30-2013 at 01:19 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,047
# 35
01-30-2013, 01:21 PM
Only problem with beams is their drain mechanics, if they didn't murder their own power supply their damage would be fine (I have a spreadsheet, which can be provided if you wish to see it, that reinforces this), if they were to drain 2.5 power each time they fired a shot returning it at the end of the cycle they would be fine.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 36
01-30-2013, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
There is no need for a tank , I tank quite well in my Escort and deal 3x as much DPS as a cruiser does. I also heal quite well so much in fact i usually send Heals to cruisers

The REAL tragedy here is that just today I ran a Cure ESTF and out of the 3 cruisers NOT ONE was able to take a target's agro from my escort...I was using a threat reducing console and the NPCs would invariably end with me in their sights! Somehow MY cruiser alt never looses agro, how does that happen? How can it be that out of 3 cruisers none knew they were a tank and as far as I could tell none were healing anyone else either!

Lets talk about educating the mostly clueless cruiser piloting masses first. Its not even really their fault, the game in a cruiser is so forgiving you can coast right through, while the supposedly OP escorts pilots need to learn to play or get popped every other minute.



With the slow turn rate there is no reason dps from a cruiser should not equal a escort except for escort captions who think they should have a superior firepower when in lore and history and plain common sense they should have MUCH less.

What lore? I can't think of any instance in TNG where the Galaxy was anything other than a punching bag for the alien ship of the week! Unless of course you mean those times they were set against a clearly technologically inferior ship or when an enemy chose to not start an incident. What they did show was the Galaxy taking a beating and keep going. I realize it was all for drama, but it was the way it was portrayed most often.

For what its worth I do agree that for the STO gameplay the Galaxy is overly tanky, but I do think that may very well have been the intent. It was meant as the most noob-friendly and foolproof ship in the game where the most casual Star Trek fans could coast without feeling like they were in anything other than an indestructible super ship


My comments in RED

Last edited by skyranger1414; 01-30-2013 at 01:34 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 769
# 37
01-30-2013, 01:32 PM
The way I see this, and this is just me, is that since everything in PvE is a damage race, all ships should do damage equally over a long enough period of time. And this would work for PvP as well.

Escorts should do spike damage, take one shot of massive power with a good enough chance to blow up any reasonable target. Because yes, the defiant, and by this games extenction all escorts are the most heavily armed ships in the quadrant. And I want escorts to have that one chance, since if they blow it, a cruiser will then be able to hound and destroy them, one piece at a time with slow steady dps. They said that escorts are heavily armed, not armored. That would be the cruisers.

Sci ships would be more the tricky kind of damage, their abilities reducing the effectivity of the enemy ship to the point where their lower damage will do the equivalent of a cruiser or escort over the same period of time.

So, just plotting cruisers and escorts, on a scale of more damage over time to spike damage I think it would be:
Fed Cruisers, KDF cruisers and battlecruisers, Fed escorts and KDF raptors, and KDF BoPs.

This would also be the scale of toughness, with Fed cruisers having the most, and BoPs having the least.

Sci ships would be, again, not on this scale since their abilities would be hard to compare with the others directly.

And on the PvP side, yes this is balanced.
Escort vs Escort: First to good position with an alpha strike wins.
Escort vs Cruiser: Make your run and then escape, because if the cruiser catches you long enough, its all over.
Escort vs Science: Same as cruiser, but run before they have you all walking on the ceiling from whatever nasty power they have.

Cruiser vs Cruiser: Battleship duel, first to run out of heals loses.
Cruiser vs Science: Try and weather they wierdness and keep after them.
Cruiser vs Escort: Tank his run, then catch him before he gets away

Science vs Science: A battle of the blue elephants or whatever else they have.
Science vs Cruiser: Keep the cruiser off balance one way or another until you can get it.
Science vs Escort: Pretty much the same as vs cruiser.

I think this is the most logical idea for damage balance in STO, since it means that over some period of time, each ship properly skilled would do the same amount of damage, just in different ways and each ship can kill each other, just in different ways. It also gets rid of the mandatory healer ship, sure you can get a ship to be a healer, but you are not a stuck in that roll if you don't want to be.

But what do I know.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 771
# 38
01-30-2013, 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Only problem with beams is their drain mechanics, if they didn't murder their own power supply their damage would be fine (I have a spreadsheet, which can be provided if you wish to see it, that reinforces this), if they were to drain 2.5 power each time they fired a shot returning it at the end of the cycle they would be fine.
That would be a good start to fix that first as it shouldn't take much work to change and try it out (resurrect the Redshirt test server for special testing on this).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 190
# 39
01-30-2013, 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuhteb5 View Post
I'm asking how is it that the base damage of an escort is higher than a cruiser when cruisers on the shows have larger beam arrays that do more base damage than the arrays on escorts.
So you want a technobabble reason why cruisers aren't a giant source of DPS?

Because cruisers, full stop, are not solely combatant ships. Sisko said it himself when they introduced the Defiant - this is a pure weapon, barely held together when it fires.

Cruisers are much more than firepower, they are also mobile science/research platforms, as well as chock full of dependents like spouses and children. And they may also have other support roles, such as cargo or medical/evac. You're not going to send a Defiant to investigate an anomaly in a nebula, or evacuate a planet under attack by the Borg.

Also, even though the power plant is larger, there is much more mass that needs to moved and protected with shields or emergency force fields etc, so there may not be the massive additional pool of energy that you think.

Really, the argument needs to be made instead that escorts are way, WAY too tanky. Give them weapon power, but give them a hit in shield power and/or hull strength. An escort alone shouldn't be able to tank a tactical cube. That doesn't mean they should immediately explode, but they should not be able to outlast the 30-45 seconds before a tac cube pops without backup and support.

That's where the disparity lies, not with "cruisers are weaksauce". Create a new variable, hull modifier, similar to shield modifier, that adjusts hull heals, total hull, and armor plating resistance, structural integrity and/or decrease the shield modifier as well.

Make escorts the glass cannons they are supposed to be, then groups will be begging for a tank with +threat consoles and that new APD DOFF to take with them into STFs.

For PvP, how about a new ability, Draw Fire, that pulls enemy targetting to you? Or a modified version of Scramble/Jam sensors that makes everyone else on your team invisible/same side as the enemy, except for you? That way attacks could be forced to your tank.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 166
# 40
01-30-2013, 09:29 PM
The TANK / DPS / HEAL does not work properly in this game because the game mechanics do not support it. Most normal MMOs have fixed classes in a SINGLE system but STO has tried to adopt the multi-class system where you have your GROUND and SPACE.
Unfortunatly, Space dosent work because there is no specific TANK / DPS / HEAL roles.
They blur badly because of the Boff / Doff skill system.

Waaa waaaa, DPS is unfairly balanced in favour of the DPS class.
REALLY ?

Waaa waaaa, Star Trek canon...
Just stop and walk away because anyone that has to sink to this level of stupidity should not be playing this game. Cryptic have already screwed over STO canon to sell warships to the Federation. Canon no longer applies and especially when it hurts Cryptics profit margin.

Food for thought: Funny how the warships of Star Trek seem to be really effective at warfare and that translates almost exactly the same in a game that... focuses on war.
Its almost as if people are expecting an Ocean Liner to be just as powerful as an Iowa Battleship.

Insert random example of an Ocean Liner being turned into a Battleship as provided by those that dont think long enough to get the point.

The only way this game has any chance of having parity between Cruisers, Science and Escorts is if Cryptic literally gutted the game down to its core by removing all of the flexibility..
Result: EVE Online

Somehow I dont think anyone here wants EVE Online's skill system or ship system.
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