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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,580
# 41
01-30-2013, 09:54 PM
Actualy to get around the Cruiser vs escort argument maybe we need to just look at the weapons.

Theoreticaly a cruiser has the same base damage potential (not factoring in buffs or consoles) as an escort given the same number and type of weapon.

However cannon weapons are mostly restricted, in fact they are the most varied class of weapon and their highest damage versions aren't available to every ship class.

As far as Dual cannon restrictsons im ok with that, what Needs to change is beam weapons.

Out of the 4 cannon type weapons the weakest 2 are available to everyone, while the highest 2 are restricted but enjoy a damage bonus with the highest getting a critical bonus.

While beams are available to everyone equaly with only 2 types and generaly have the lowest dps numbers and no special bonuses.

So perhaps there should be more beam weapons restricted from the cannon vessels with some kind of bonus at high end.

Personaly if cannons are the hammers then beams should be the swords.
Less potential damage but a higher chance to pierce.

In that vein maybe beam weapons should get a bonus to shield penetration to reflect the greater strain a sustained energy beam would place on an energy shielding system.

Last edited by disposeableh3r0; 01-30-2013 at 11:38 PM. Reason: edited for spalling
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 765
# 42
01-30-2013, 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Actualy to get around the Cruiser vs escort argument maybe we need to just look at the weapons.

Theoreticaly a cruiser has the same base damage potential (not factoring in buffs or consoles) as an escort given the same number and type of weapon.

However cannon weapons are mostly restricted, in fact they are the most varied class of weapon and their highest damage versions aren't available to every ship class.

AS far as Dual cannon restrictsons im ok with that, what Needs to change is beam weapons.

Out of the 4 cannon type weapons the weakest 2 are available to everyone, while the highest 2 are restricted but enjoy a damage bones with the highest getting a critical bonus.

While beams are available to everyone equaly with only 2 types and generaly have the lowest dps numbers and no special bonuses.

So perhaps there should be more beam weapons restricted from the cannon vessels with some kind of bonus at high end.

Personaly if cannons are the hammers then beams should be the swords.
Less potential damage but a higher chance to pierce.

In that vein maybe beam weapons should get a bonus to shield penetration to replect the greater strain a sustained energy beam would place on an energy shielding system.
It's not a bad thought. Doing this in addition to revising the current energy drain mechanics on beams could be interesting.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 207
# 43
01-31-2013, 06:49 AM
they dont translate well from movies to the game.....

the ST Cruiser in the movies and tv shows were the backbone of the fleet....they did everything and were efficient.

Sci Vessels and Tac vessels while being in seperate series were pretty much ignored otherwise and were not promoted as particulary useful...except for their repsective tv shows. Viyager and Ds9


I think the devs have translated them fairly well into jack of all trades and master of nothing....



A sci vessel can tank better and an escort can dps better the cruiser does them but nearly as well....

any debate to a sci vessel ebing a better tank take a look at my Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit....4 eng 4 sci slots i can muster enough shields and hull resists to tank anything in the game and can take a shot froom Donatras beam attack and still have hp to spare.....but I digress.
Napoleon's final defeat came at Waterloo. Must've been embarrassing. You're the f'ing emperor. You conquered all of Europe, only to lose in a place with a stupid name like Waterloo. Or Watergate, or Whitewater. Note to politicans: Stay on land.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 190
# 44
01-31-2013, 07:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
So perhaps there should be more beam weapons restricted from the cannon vessels with some kind of bonus at high end.
That kind of makes sense. Restrict 250* beam arrays to cruisers and science vessels only. For technobabble reasoning:

Beam arrays require 250* phaser strips around the whole ship. There are certain technical limitations on how those strips can be integrated into a ship, such as a limit on how much they can "bend". This precludes their installation on Escort-class ships.

DHCs do extra crit severity, perhaps the newBeams could be granted extra crit chance, basically a free [CrtH].
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,580
# 45
01-31-2013, 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moronwmachinegun View Post
That kind of makes sense. Restrict 250* beam arrays to cruisers and science vessels only. For technobabble reasoning:

Beam arrays require 250* phaser strips around the whole ship. There are certain technical limitations on how those strips can be integrated into a ship, such as a limit on how much they can "bend". This precludes their installation on Escort-class ships.

DHCs do extra crit severity, perhaps the newBeams could be granted extra crit chance, basically a free [CrtH].
I posted more on this in another thread(s)

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=533021

But basically I suggest the current 2 beam weapons stay as they are and 2 new weapons be added.

Keeping with they are the pinnacle of their type they keep wide arcs (one getting an even wider arc) and have more firepower than lesser versions.

I also proposed the heavier version get a crit chance bonus so we agree there but that also all beams get a shield penetration bonus. I believe even a small bonus would make them more viable and shouldn't upset game balance since it would only boost your damage to a shielded target but would do nothing for an un shielded target..
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,277
# 46
01-31-2013, 07:28 AM
The solution is to give us capital ship-grade beam arrays. Like regular beam arrays, but with reduced accuracy, greater damage (comparable to DHC), and fewer shots per cycle so they fire in powerful hammer blows instead of weak pew. Their poor accuracy will render them largely ineffectual at shooting escorts, much like on the show. And they can only be mounted on capital ships: The big cruisers frequently classified in-game as battleships. As such, it won't really change the cruiser vs. escort dynamic, but cruisers will become capable of actually slugging it out against each other with effect, instead of laughable jokes, while a cruiser that mounts these weapons will actually be LESS effective than they presently are vs. escorts.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,051
# 47
01-31-2013, 07:33 AM
I must say that i find Crptics interpretation of Star Trek ships really poor.

Other Games did a much better job, like Starfleet Command or Bridge Commander. Spoken in STO terms these where cruiser games, just as Star Trek is a crusier universe.
They are the iconic ships of Star Trek. Star Wars and BSG have space fighters and Star Trek has big powerful ships as "heroes". Cryptic completely ignored this, they just adapted Star Trek onto "their" BGS-ish game. That's what makes me really pi**ed about them. They just don't care about Trek IMO, i sometimes think they should have made a Star Wars or BSG game.
Don't missunderstand me here, i like BSG and Star Wars, but i absolutely HATE it when things get mixed up like that.


Cryptic designed crusiers as just big bricks with not even decent firepower, so their (beloved) escorts can zip around them, just like star fighters in Star Wars or BSG. This is not Star Trek in my opinion.
More than that i find this whole Escort/ Cruiser/ Science seperation just stupid. I know it is a MMO and MMOs tend to have their own logic, but this is a Star Trek game, for gods sake.

I must say that i am normally not into MMOs, i don't even like the premise of having to socialize with others very much. I would have preferred it if there was a Game like STO just for solo play.
(Ground and space part, growing content, and so on.)
I just love to play this huge Star Trek game where things get permanently added and i love the mix of Ground and Space action.

Since this game is already running for 3 years now, i highly doubt they will change anything with their ship system.
I just hope they will release some Starfleet cruiser/escort hybrids, for less than 200 or 300$!

What also bothers me is the excessive amount of cannon using ships. I am not completely against those ships, i just HATE cannons. In my opinion cannon weapons should get a option to switch their FX to beam type weapon, Space Combat would look much more like Star trek in an instant.

What i am afraid of is that some people will actually start to believe that ships in Star Trek really work like they do in STO (stone/paper/scissor). And so, STO would become something like semi canon. On that day Star Trek is officially dead (at least for me).
In the past i got upset when thinking about ships in STO, but i try to see STO NOT as a Star Trek game.
Since then, it is actually a fun game.


EDIT:
I think they should at least introduce something like Heavy Beam Arrays, being able to do DC equivalent damage. Maybe a restriction of one or two per cruiser would be sufficient. It would greatly enhance the usefulness of cruisers.
Additionally Cryptic should introduce MACO or OMEGA versions of some popular ship classes.
These ships should be availlable through the reputation system.
MACO versions could have a more engineering focussed BOFF layout, while OMEGA versions would get more tactical focussed BOFF layouts.

I think it would be a nice way to get high end ships without having to join a big fleet.



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-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-

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Last edited by yreodred; 01-31-2013 at 08:05 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 48
01-31-2013, 08:16 AM
They should simply make beam weapons not lose damage regardless of range and make cannons only do max damage under 2km range.

After all, escorts HAVE the speed and turn rate to close in and do devastating damage. It fits their role and performance.

Cruisers and other ships using beams get screwed by damage loss over distances they cannot cross fast enough or turn fast enough to control the battlespace.
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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 972
# 49
01-31-2013, 08:22 AM
personalys i think they just ease up on turn rate and give escorts more hull or sheilds problem sloved
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,186
# 50
01-31-2013, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
INTENTIONAL DESIGN DECISION.
Kind of sums it up. Folks may disagree with it, but the "fix" folks are looking for would actually be a complete redesign of the game from the ground up. Maybe somewhere down the road, Cryptic will do well enough with STO that PWE will see value in having STO run alongside an STO2 with a different design if they believe that such a game could generate the revenue for it...

...otherwise...well, yeah - folks will have to live with that design or they not. Given how the game continues to do better and better despite what some see as a flaw...well, yeah.

Edit: My personal opinion? There should be Escort missions like there are Shuttle missions as far as PvE goes. It doesn't matter enough to give any thought to how it would be handled on the PvP side, because it simply doesn't matter enough - not going to change.
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