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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,623
# 71
01-31-2013, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you want more dps for cruisers, then you have to severely shave hulls (at least by 1/3rd or by half if you want a significant buff) while decreasing the turnrate and shield modifiers. Deal?
This gets the most ludicrous post in this thread award.

With a beam overload I average 10,000 damage on a single hit that could miss (an all or nothing attack). Then my remaining beams are less effective due to the drain and I have to wait a minimum of 15 seconds for beam overload to be ready again.

On my JHAS I can buff my forward cannons to over 3,000 DPS each for at least 10 seconds. After you take the slight drop on weapons power that firing causes you end up with over 80,000 damage. That's not including the turrets or any torps, either.

A fair compromise would be to double the firepower of cruisers and take an eighth of their hull. Anything less and you're showing yourself to be a selfish I-want-to-win-at-any-cost person who likes to take advantage of the adventurous people who persevere in trying to make something different.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 72
01-31-2013, 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you want more dps for cruisers, then you have to severely shave hulls (at least by 1/3rd or by half if you want a significant buff) while decreasing the turnrate and shield modifiers. Deal?
I don't want to DPS as a direct action. I want to be able to put a escort and any one of my non-escort ships side by side and be able to ask "Why do I bother?" and actually have a good answer!

Quote:
There is a sliding scale that in a battle with each side having <x> time to live and need <y> time to kill, disable, or flee their opponent.

This scale vastly favors escort or escort like builds.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 73
01-31-2013, 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
A fair compromise would be to double the firepower of cruisers and take an eighth of their hull. Anything less and you're showing yourself to be a selfish I-want-to-win-at-any-cost person who likes to take advantage of the adventurous people who persevere in trying to make something different.
I have no interest in this. I have a sci, a tac, and... an eng. I enjoy playing everyone, when i have time for this. The eng is using a cruiser, and i have a lot of fun playing this guy. The proof of that is that he's T5 omega and rommie rep with all his gear.

So: stop this. Your post is defamatory. I like engs, cruisers, heal boats and the nice fireworks called "fire at will". I just know they are incredibly powerful tools as they are. You need to be willing to play a cruiser as a meatbag/support ship though.

If you like defamation, do you have ego troubles to be willing to be the super DPS hero in games?

You see, such arguments are pointless, so please stick to facts when you want to quote me.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,623
# 74
01-31-2013, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you want more dps for cruisers, then you have to severely shave hulls (at least by 1/3rd or by half if you want a significant buff) while decreasing the turnrate and shield modifiers. Deal?
If you're willing to say the ridiculous then you must be prepared for others to do the same.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 75
01-31-2013, 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
...I like engs, cruisers, heal boats and the nice fireworks called "fire at will". I just know they are incredibly powerful tools as they are. You need to be willing to play a cruiser as a meatbag/support ship though. ...

I'm butting in again, but I have two questions for you, because I'd love the theory a support ship to work in practice:

1) How do you make fire at will compare to even normal cannons and something like cannon rapid fire? My experience is that unless you happen to be in a rare place you only have one maybe two in the entire 10Km sphere of a beam boat's reach. Any more and it spreads the damage so ridiculous thin as to be worthless.

It's fine and nifty for taking out fighter, mines, or torpedoes, but if that what you use it for, there are better abilities. More reliable as well.

2) You can look me in the eye and say that a pure support ship has more affect on a team then just blowing a opponent out of the stars?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 40
# 76
01-31-2013, 04:01 PM
right i will admit i haven't read the books BUT just re-rewatched a couple of ds9 episode where they actually say the defient has the strongest weapons known to startfleet.

So using the bigger warp core argument . invalid as you specify the series.

If cruisers get more dps say 50, science will need a bit more dps/hull say 25 of each , and escorts would need 50 more hull to balance it all out .....ohh look back at step 1 with no rock paper scissors but rock rock rock........
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 208
# 77
01-31-2013, 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chahk42 View Post
If you think escorts are better than cruisers in STFs, while cruisers and science ships are better suited for solo missions, then by all means equip both and swap them out as needed. Problem solved.
I don't think anyone thinks cruisers and science ships are better suited for solo missions than escorts. Aside from a few hybrid ships (like the Breen ship and the Vesta class ships), cruisers and science vessels are of very little use in STO. Why mess around with a slow cruiser when an escort gets things done much more quickly? That's is why people keep asking for higher cruiser turnrates and increased beam array dps.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 161
# 78
01-31-2013, 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moronwmachinegun View Post
Really, the argument needs to be made instead that escorts are way, WAY too tanky.
That's pretty much it. Just look at the Jem'Hadar Bug. An Escort doesn't need all those engineering stations or that 11% more shield strength to tank some enemies.
It just needs speed, enhanced through attack pattern omega if possible, and Evasive Maneuvers for emergencies.
The rest is utility, science skills actually, of which most escorts have just as many as cruisers, namely Hazard Emitters and Polarize Hull.
The use of Aux to Battery even enables a permanent Emergency Power to Shields.

What's the advantage of a cruiser? Engineering team? Most players prefer to cycle Tactical Team, with good reason (Borg assimilate is reason enough). Transfer Shield Strength is a Science skill again..
Actually there aren't that many tank abilities in the 'tank' (engineering) department.

Yes, a cruiser can tank better, than an escort. But the difference is not as big as in the damage department.

So yes, cruisers shouldn't deal more dps, cruisers should be better at tanking. Escorts should be worse at tanking, or let's say, evading damage.
And PvE content should require a tank, instead of "Look out! it's that torpedo of.." *Boom*
Yeah, evading attacks you can't even tank actually favors the escorts and isn't a very good concept.

Last but not least it should be noted that min-maxing is quite rampant in STO and minimums and maximums are very far apart. This is no surprise if you look at all those huge modifiers.
Having such an enmormous span between min damage and max damage, as well as min tanking and max tanking (both repairing and avoiding) makes balancing very difficult.
And I'm pretty sure this reflects onto PvP and causes the problems there.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 79
01-31-2013, 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
I'm butting in again, but I have two questions for you, because I'd love the theory a support ship to work in practice:

1) How do you make fire at will compare to even normal cannons and something like cannon rapid fire? My experience is that unless you happen to be in a rare place you only have one maybe two in the entire 10Km sphere of a beam boat's reach. Any more and it spreads the damage so ridiculous thin as to be worthless.
FAW isn't designed to deal a lot ot damage, it's design to draw fire on you. A lot of it if it's possible. Then your real job as eng can start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
2) You can look me in the eye and say that a pure support ship has more affect on a team then just blowing a opponent out of the stars?
Yes. Not all players are good. Not all players can tank an elite tac cube, or 6 elite tac cubes in hive onslaught elite. It's my favourite instance to play with my eng so far.

A heal boat is also extremely useful in CSE, where you can just take the aggro (cubes, negh'vars, raptors) to allow others to get at optimal fire range, get neg'vars on you and tank them all day long (very few escorts can do that), you will also need a heal boat in Starbase fleet defense, and you're also a very useful cruiser if you don't let tacs tanking donatra in KASE.

6 points in threat control; FAW to make this meaningful, many heal abilities, some good tanking ones, and you can have a lot of fun while being extremely useful in your team, as long as you stop farming infected space elite like mad. Keeping others safe or alive is also extremely important, as long as you stop playing easy content only.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-31-2013 at 06:36 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 80
01-31-2013, 08:47 PM
Quote:
FAW isn't designed to deal a lot ot damage, it's design to draw fire on you. A lot of it if it's possible. Then your real job as eng can start. ... Keeping others safe or alive is also extremely important
So goes the theory anyway.

In practice? Dead targets don't shoot back. Escorts really that much damage.

It's my original question? Why bother tank when you can remove the need to tank all together by just blowing something up first and faster.

Escorts really that much damage, and not uncommonly.
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