Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,506
# 51
02-08-2013, 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
The problem is that Cruisers can't effectively Tank, and Science can't effectively Heal.
I don't know if I'd agree with that. The best Tanking ships I've seen have always been well built/specced/played Cruisers. At least in my experience, what makes my Engineer flying a Defiant R seem overpowered is that he has access to all those Captain abilities that stack with BOFF abilities. He definitely can't out-Tank my KDF Engineer in his Cruiser. It seems to me the whole threat generation is what needs a look see.
Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain. Why is he climbing a mountain?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 168
# 52
02-08-2013, 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Well most of the game can be played with only dps, and the fact that your 1v1 ended in stalemate just shows that there is a balance issue.
If anything it shows that Escorts aren't OP. I am assuming that he performed that 1v1 match by fighting the Cruiser in question using an Escort DPS build (otherwise bringing it up in this thread would be counterproductive). The thing is, I did the same exact thing back when the Odyssey bundle pack was first being tested. I took my Defiant Retrofit from back then and tested it against someone elses Odyssey (who had all 3 Odyssey Consoles equipped). No matter what configuration I used on my Defiant, there was nothing I could do by which to kill his Odyssey in straight up 1v1. There were also several moments where he outright nearly killed my defiant.

Not for lack of trying, but sheer outright DPS does not defeat a Cruiser that is built properly, unless that DPS is coming from more than one Escort or the Cruiser in question is an NPC. It is just a fact of the game. It can't be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
But its supposed to be a trinity. Rock must beat scissors, scissors must beat paper, and paper must beat rock.
where did you get the idea that Star Trek Online is based on Roshambo? I admit the classes are a trinity, but in no way is a trinity automatically assumed to break down into a game of Rock Paper Scissors. More traditionally (and etymologically) a Trinity is used to describe a situation in which the composite parts of the trinity are supposed to work as a unified whole, not as opposition to each other.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,314
# 53
02-08-2013, 09:25 AM
The problem is that the "glass cannons" are not "glass". We do not have a supposed balance of "high DPS, low survivability" vs "low DPS, high survivability", because escorts don't have low survivability.

Don't listen to people whining about blowing up, they'll blow up in whatever ship class they're in anyway because they have suboptimal builds. Listen instead to the people who answer "I can tank Tac Cubes fine in my escort, what are you talking about?" They're the ones who are properly making use of the system, which is how you see if the system works or not.

As a min/maxing math geek I haven't flown in a cruiser for ages, so don't bother trying to dismiss this as "cruiser whining".

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 939
# 54
02-08-2013, 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
Don't listen to people whining about blowing up, they'll blow up in whatever ship class they're in anyway because they have suboptimal builds. Listen instead to the people who answer "I can tank Tac Cubes fine in my escort, what are you talking about?" They're the ones who are properly making use of the system, which is how you see if the system works or not.
Bingo. A "glass cannon" that doesn't shatter when being focused on by a "sub boss", unsupported, isn't exactly glass now, is it?

Granted, these threads rarely go into detail on minor details like if it's an engie at the helm using MW / RSF to survive, and how long these kills take, however the regularity of these comments I see on the forum tend to lead me to believe that escorts are a little tankier than they should be...

As someone who's brought all three classes up the levels, as it were, my escorts are the squishiest, by far, but if I took "proper" steps (such as slight disengagements from those hyper-plasma equipped D'Deriexes) then the battle would be won, solo, but in the same amount of time it would take my cruiser to do so - in a way, balanced...
Yes, I'm going here. Iconic / "hero" ships, I'm talking Galaxy/Defiant/Intrepid here you TNG-era fans, get a T6 version, then ALL the hero ships (Connie, Miranda, NX, etc.) need one too. I'm a ToS fan, and proud of it. This is a themepark, let me enjoy my ride or none of us deserve one...
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 345
# 55
02-08-2013, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by avarseir View Post
I disagree.

Escorts are not in anyway OP. It very much depends on the captain, the build and how the captain wants to play it.

The problem is there're many cruiser/sci captains who want to be an escort, instead of focusing on their strengths, they want to be something else.

While its true, DPS is glorious and its nice to see the dmg numbers and crits and the way some of the missions are skewed towards DPS, cruisers or science ships can be deadly when used properly.

For example, I fought against a galaxy-R on 1v1 recently, and I can't make a dent on his defenses and whenever I managed to take out half of his HP, he recovers very quickly. The match lasted a good 30 mins, before we both decided to stop. In consolation, he wasn't able to kill me too. However, on one occasion he nearly got me and I was only saved by my impulse capacitance console.

Similarly, a well played science ships are also very deadly. They can perma-confuse, drain, and kill you easily once your engines are disabled and weapons gone and shields down. Photonic fleet is also very irritatiing and annoying.

I think Cryptic did a good job balancing the ships.

If you examine very closely on the skills available, there're many skills are designed to be used in conjunction with other skills. E.g. EptA with HE/TSS/AuxSiF/AuxID. Then there's AuxtoBatt with BO/FAW and basically many more creative combination that involves battery consumables.

I feel that the issue is players are terrible at micromanaging their skill tree - they stick to easy skills like Eng Team 1, Eng Team 2, Eng Team 3 for example.

I flew a cruiser recently, with EptW and AuxtoBatt, FAW and BO is very deadly!
+infinity ... Thank you for saying this so clearly!!!

I fly a Fleet Defiant and Heavy Escort Carrier Fed Side and a Korath KDF side. BY far my Science Captain in Science ship combo is FAR more dangerous in PvP and in PvE i sometimes have to actually hold back because I can (for instance) take down a generator in ISE faster than I can turn off weapons.

I've said it in other threads and will echo it here:

Want to do DPS? Fly an Escort with a Tac Captain

Want to play CC and debuff support? Fly a Sci Captain in a Sci Ship

Want to be a support/heal/tank? Fly an Engineer in a cruiser.

If you have ever done PvP in a team of five tacs in escorts -vs- a team that has a blend of all three professions in proper ships you know that beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is no one class that is OP compared to the other.

PLAY YOU PROFESSION as intended, or re-roll as the profession that fits the way you want to play. Please stop making threads begging the devs to make all three professions and ship classes functions the same.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,125
# 56
02-08-2013, 10:04 AM
The real problem is the system. It allows for weak players to be so fail-tastic that they are just barely capable of completing the super easy PvE content on normal without any thought, reason or use of abilities. When you take those abilities and put them into a coordinated build of someone with knowledge it turns into an unbeatable killing machine in easy mode PvE.

Take those same knowledgeable players who have maximized their offense and defense and put them against limited stupid enemies in elite mode and you'll find them using blind spots and weaknesses of enemies against them. Whats the results? The weak players rush in head on and explode nearly instantly, the good players can tank the tac cubes in an escort.

So you reduce the escort's ability to tank and make the game cruisers online again?

Bottom line is an escort can tank moderately and deal high damage
A cruiser can deal moderate damage with high tanking ability
Science ships are a mess that they can't get right at all, they can tank moderately well with low damage and a lot of utility. This is where the work is needed.

With the exception of science (and most of that is content related) the is a stronger than expected balance between escorts and cruisers.

You can make certain escorts tank extremely well, but on the same side you can make some cruisers put out a crazy amount of damage. Each sacrifices something to cross to the other side, but the people complaining want their ships to sacrifice nothing, don't they?
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,201
# 57
02-08-2013, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by avarseir View Post
I disagree. IF the cruiser is able to kill the escort while the escort have problems killing the cruiser, then there's an issue with balance.

Balance is when everything ends in a stalemate. If one class is able to overpower the other, then its not balanced.
I completely agree. As a matter of STO history, zombie cruisers used to be a PVP nuisance. They were virtually unkillable without coordinated sub-nuc's. This ultimately drew the attention of Cryptic's Dev's, and the results are what we now see today.

I think cruisers can be given a little more maneuverability to make them more combat-capable. Beam arrays can also have their excessive power drain issues addressed. These two changes will bring the cruiser more in-line with the escort without sacrificing ship parity since escorts will remain STO's primary damage dealer.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 659
# 58
02-08-2013, 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribbleorlfl View Post
To me, instead of changing weapons or ships, the answer to balance and parity is to either add in diminishing returns to tac consoles or remove them from the eng/sci consoles.
That, and designing PvE content so that defeating the encounter actually requires a variety of skills and abilities, not just DPS DPS DPS.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 114
# 59 Making escorts less "OP"
02-08-2013, 11:01 AM
First, for this thread to have any validity you have to accept the premise that escorts are over powered ...which I do not.

This thread is therefore declared null and void.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 489
# 60
02-08-2013, 11:16 AM
I figured this game should be fly what you want with any class. But if you doods want to be a narrow minded about classes and the trinity, why not just give ships a boost in their respective areas.
Ex:

Escort-
+25-50% boost in Tac skills

-25-50% loss in Sci and Engi skills.

So a cruiser would be healing 6000 with Aux to Struct while and escort is only healing 2000 with the same skill.

This would give give increased cool down times for skills like Reverse shield polarity and normal CD for cruisers.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


Forgetting everything I said above, all I ask is for is for beams to drain less power and for Cruisers and Science Vessels to be buffed.

Last edited by xigbarg; 02-08-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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