Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 872
# 81
02-08-2013, 12:08 AM
Not sure if it's much of an issue, but I've noticed that the rewards for winning any pvp arena/capnhold/assault are pretty much identical to losing. I mean sure I want to reward players on both sides for a game well fought, but it'd be nice to see some increase in rewards for winning.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 716
# 82
02-08-2013, 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Boffs / Gear /Reputation: Varous things

Issue: There are many shipclass-agnostic things that provide a huge amount of innate resists and regeneration (both hull and shields) to any ship hat equips them which completely negate pressure damage and lead to a situation where the only kills in a premade vs premade situation are super spike kills from 100% to 0% health that happen with tons of tac buffs and multiple subnukes in a timeframe of just a couple of seconds. This invalidates any damage-dealing builds that are not based on SNB or massive spike damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This sounds like a complaint that is exclusive to 1v1 scenarios, and PvP is not and cannot be effectively balanced around duels when we have 5v5 (or more) arenas as the standard match. If you are in a team environment, the combined damage of coordination is likely to outstrip an enemy's ability to counter.

Teamwork is OP, but we have to assume that everybody uses it.
Lecturing me about the powers of teamwork... yeah, that inspires confidence in your knowledge of the game.

No, this complaint is not rooted in 1v1 experiences. On the contrary, it comes from 5v5 premade matches.


A full team has a maximum sustained raw damage output against a single target of maybe 20k dps if we're generous. Now add in resists only from EPtS1 (18%), shield power (let's assume effective 80 power after EPtS), elite fleet shields (10*2% + 15% from resa/b) and for fun throw the player a single ES2 with 30% resist, then multiply all these together and you arrive at 70% resist - from stuff that ANY ship can carry + a single ES2 (it's 56% without the ES2; and all ships can carry higher levels of EPtS than just lvl 1 if they like).

Okay, back to the damage. 20k against a single target? 5% = 1k is bleedthrough (assuming resilient shields) and gets soaked up by leadership and the borg hull heal. 5% is simply absorbed by the resilient shield. 90% is shield damage. Now factor in resists. This leaves us with 5.4k dps. From a couple of short tests it looks like a sci ship with T4 passives will have something like 1k+ innate shield regen. EPtS is another 180+ healing per second. A TSS2 with medium aux is something like 300 hps (assuming a 45s cooldown; and we aren't even factoring in the additional resist), the ES2 gives another 400 hps (with a 45s cooldown). So we have easily something like 1.9k shield hps from the ship. (If we add heals among all the ships, we can get above the 5.4k dps, so focus fire without Alpha/SNB support won't get us anywhere.)

Let's assume we want to do something other than alpha/snb kills with a window of opportunity of just 2-3 seconds. Like pressure damage to soften up a target for a target switch of the remaining dps. Take 2 players firing at the target. We have 5.4k total, so two players will do ~2.1k dps. Subtract the 1.9k hps and we have 200 dps. A ship has something like 40k to 60k+ total shield capacity. So it takes us more than 200 seconds to wear down the shields of a single ship with TWO ships attacking a single ship that receives only an ES2. But then there is that teamwork you mentioned, which means the ship will certainly receive an additional heal or two in 200 seconds and we can't do anything to soften up the target. If we just send a single dps to pressure a healer (possibly with RSF+MW), nothing will happen at all. This used to be different.
(And don't forget: achieving this healing is significantly easier to do than dealing the assumed 20k dps.)

You may have noticed that there weren't any significant assumptions about the ship being of a specific class or captain type. I guess innate regen will vary a little, but for example escorts will receive better defense scores to compensate that. So the numbers are more or less shipclass-agnostic.


Now maybe you disagree with my figures. Let's hear yours. What are the dps/hps figures around which you balance the abilities?

Oh, and just for fun: What is the average resist that you suspect is currently the norm in somewhat organised pvp matches?
http://hilbertguide.com

Last edited by mancom; 02-08-2013 at 01:41 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,717
# 83
02-08-2013, 01:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Lecturing me about the powers of teamwork...
not the kerrrat troll that i ve been looking for?

Hilbert is spot on, Bort clean you googles and read again. Pressure damage used to have a role, it really doesn't any more.

and please Bort, a doff being as powerful as a cpt. power is working as intended?? You have got to be joking?!? Why then keep sci cpts in the game at all, their most powerful and defining function is available to all??
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 425
# 84
02-08-2013, 01:39 AM
subnuke
-if you have been subnuked and you die, you respawn into the map still subnuked

this can be be difficult to get back into the fight with your team when you race in still with abilities on sick timer cooldowns



the fliping ship stats/display!

-can we at least get the fliping stats of the ship to show correctly when effected by consoles or boffs for god sakes, I have no clue what my crit chance is or for that matter what it is for each individual weapon I have- I dont complain or vent much on the forums, but if there was a topic that gets my blood boiling it is the fact that we have no black and white simple display that shows when you slot this- THIS ability goes UP-

we have some silly ghost effect we just have to assume is working or not working (or as many have done, use other programs to try and sift through the b.s. to figure out what really is going on)

If anything would ever cause me to leave this game- this is top of the list- really, how can anyone commit tens of million EC to buying consoles when they dont have a way of telling what its effect is besides some bland, short description that doesnt help- (I gotta stop here or im going to flip out, LOL)
Just because it is not a cookie cutter escort does not mean it should not be in the game.

Win or lose, in the end it does not reflect on who you are as a person, in the end it is how you treat others that really reflects who you are.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 85
02-08-2013, 03:41 AM
Please also consider this:

Scis have the only useless captain ability: photonic fleet. This fleet dies easily, warps out too soon - as soon as there is no enemy in range, and it's the only summon ability working like that -, does almost no damage (hits between 20 and 100 damage), and has a super long CD. All other captain abilities are extremely powerful, but this one is completely useless.

This ability is vastly inferior to any other summons such as the romulan reinforcements, but still it's a captain ability.

Last edited by diogene0; 02-08-2013 at 03:44 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,955
# 86
02-08-2013, 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Lecturing me about the powers of teamwork... yeah, that inspires confidence in your knowledge of the game.

No, this complaint is not rooted in 1v1 experiences. On the contrary, it comes from 5v5 premade matches.
thanks to a certain tool, i can see that its at least as bad if not worse then you outlined.

for me, maco+ ~80 shield power +EPtS1 gives over 50% resist. its in the 60% range with EPtS3. EPtS1 and 125 shield energy with a fleet elite shield with resA/B slams against the resist cap easily.

there is no longer pressure damage in game any more, in pvp the only energy weapons that have an effect against anyone who knows how to play is DHCs. all the other weapons, hardly worth firing.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 738
# 87
02-08-2013, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Weapon: Tetryon
Issue: Proc seems to be underperforming, is relatively weak to start and is also further resisted by PI.
Status: To be advised by Cryptic
+1 to this, tetryon need some love. Maybe a better scaling with flow capacitors.

Naz can u add it to the list?
John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
# 88
02-08-2013, 06:26 AM
Right ladies and gents, all updates centralised into the first thread.

Thanks for the feedback Borticus. Is this how you want it to be maintained going forward?
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 27
# 89
02-08-2013, 06:58 AM
Quote:
29. PVP Arena: Ships glitch into ceiling
Issue: On use of jump console, ships get glitched in ceiling and cant move
Status: I hadn't heard this one before. Is it only when using Subspace Jump?
Yes it is Bort - Every good PVP match that hits the ceiling is affected by this. It is as if you jump outside the ring and can't get back in
This one can be fixed by jumping out 2 minutes later, but it is a really annoying glitch. Happened to me at least twice.

Quote:
31. Weapon: Tricobalt
Issue: Torpedo does friendly damage, mine doesn't
Status: Under review
As far as I know, isn't this an issue with every mine/torp. Where basically torps AOE kinetic/proc, and mines only hit the enemy?


Other than that, my only concern is if their is going to be a balance pass on the amount of spam that can be thrown out. I've noticed it becomes very hard to keep target on my enemy when they are running High Yield Omega torpedos and the Romulan Crit Perception ability. Add some pets in their, and its like they get an AOE shield.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,335
# 90
02-08-2013, 08:19 AM
Sorry, I misread the SNB topic. I thought the issue was in reference to the Captain Power, and responded as such. The SNB Doff is not currently under review, so let's move that back to a "pending" status.

The Subspace Jump = out of bounds issue is one that I believe can be addressed quickly, as I just had to repair something else similar on another power (raycast vs. collision detection). It sounds like this power has no collision detection built-in, and needs a failsafe state. Call it "Under Review."

Phased Tetryon = Under review.

As for the issue raised/responded-to by Mancom... Honestly, I probably should not have replied to that one just yet, as my reply didn't offer much in the way of constructive feedback, or a step toward resolution. It's a many-faceted issue that can't accurately be boiled down to a single variable. I can see how Resists/Regen can appear to be the issue, but there's just as much of an argument to be made that they NEED to exist in their current state BECAUSE spike damage builds and SNB coordination strikes exist.

Somebody asked for a general time frame on all of these "Under Review" issues... I'm afraid I honestly cannot give one at this time. I can say, however, that our schedule leading up to our next update is pretty tight, and anything associated with that update will take priority over balance concerns like those raised in this thread. So it wouldn't go amiss to assume that many of these won't be addressed until the months following that update. That said, we hope to get to them sooner than that, if possible.

Naz, if you're willing and able to continue maintaining the first few posts of this thread, it will make tracking the issues, and informing the community about progress, that much easier.
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Cryptic - Systems Design
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