Republic Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 65
# 221
02-09-2013, 11:38 AM
Every PVP ship in game has its advantages and can be used over another. Stop complaining that the ship you chose cannot do what you wanted it to do. Perhaps you should move to a ship that does what you want rather than demanding nerfs on other ships so that you can feel superior by consistently destroying it.

Oh who am I kidding? I am just spitting in the wind here.

I am the type of person that takes a ship that people feel is inferior and then "LEARN" about it; outfit it correctly and then go into battle. Rather than use a cookie cutter design that everyone else has and then complain that I can't kill every ship in the universe.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 337
# 222
02-09-2013, 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnumoftheblack View Post
Every PVP ship in game has its advantages and can be used over another. Stop complaining that the ship you chose cannot do what you wanted it to do. Perhaps you should move to a ship that does what you want rather than demanding nerfs on other ships so that you can feel superior by consistently destroying it.

Oh who am I kidding? I am just spitting in the wind here.

I am the type of person that takes a ship that people feel is inferior and then "LEARN" about it; outfit it correctly and then go into battle. Rather than use a cookie cutter design that everyone else has and then complain that I can't kill every ship in the universe.
Except the JHAS has every advantage across the board and no disadvantages. Some people complain that it has no uique special console with a special power, even though it still got an extra console slot as if it had one. Most of those consoles are cheap gimmicks and a waste of a slot.

The bug grief is nothing new. It's been a problem since it was introduced. A while ago, it was just rare to see one in a PvP match so players just sort of put up with it. People are only becoming more vocal now simply because there are significantly more of them since Cryptic saw fit to reintroduce them, twice.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,224
# 223
02-09-2013, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
The bug grief is nothing new. It's been a problem since it was introduced. A while ago, it was just rare to see one in a PvP match so players just sort of put up with it. People are only becoming more vocal now simply because there are significantly more of them since Cryptic saw fit to reintroduce them, twice.
Don't forget, they've mentioned they're planning to do it again recently as well...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 224
02-09-2013, 01:16 PM
Like I said, I don't WANT to see the Bugship nerfed-I want it to have some competition other than "Buy a Bugship".

In tabletop wargaming, there is a sort-of-rule in how features are developed that can be summed up as the 40/40/20 rule.

Properly balanced, 40% of the time a team of equal skill (either team) will win-that is, both sides have a flat 40% chance based on skill and gear. the other 20% is dumb luck and random factors.

the problem with the Bugship is that it's JUST good enough to break that 40%-a team with one vs. a team without one, shifts the balance to somewhere in the area of 50% vs. 30%, with the same 20% "Dumb luck" effect. when one assumes equal levels of skill on both sides, equivalent component gearing, similar passives, similar team composition (aka Ceterus Paribus in economics terms)

The solution is NOT to nerf-nerfing is BAD. The solution is to introduce ship-types at the faction-exclusive level (i.e. non-lockbox) that can shift that 20% back to the middle of the graph.

The Devs came pretty close with the Fleetscorts (Patrol and Tactical), but that's only for one side of what is (supposedly) a two-faction game, and it was ONLY close-maybe a 5% shift, given that the bugship's still got turn rates and shields over it's nearest competition.

45/20/35 is still doable for a relatively balanced game, assuming some restriction were to apply to the 'top ship' that does not apply anywhere else-but that's adding needless complexity to the system, and is a Nerf (Nerfs are BAAAD.)

A better solution would be to introduce 'competitor' designs at the Fleetship level (Fleetships ARE character bound, after all, and costly in their own right). Since the Bugship's got 3 out of 3 for speed/shield/firepower, a few designs with 2 out of 3 (and different between Fed and Klink), but running some alternative advantage (say, bonus power the Bug doesn't get on the fed side, integral Battlecloak on the KDF side) should be sufficient.

Possibly an update to the "Smallboy" Escort on the Fed side-give it a higher turn rate and a 5th TC, and 5% more power available in 2/3 slots-thus it's still weak (.77 shield multiplier, small crew, thin hull) but has TEETH (5 tac consoles like it's big brother) and MOVE (a Fedscort that has Bug turn rates) add 1 ens. uni slot.

The paradigm with Raptors is that they're kind of hard to manuever and get on target, and they rely on conventional cloak instead of Battlecloak. It may not be optimal to upgrade the Raptor into a Bugship competitor, since the KDF already has a chassis that moves LIKE a bugship (the Bird of Prey), but lacks both weapons, and weapons feeding consoles. unfortunately we already GOT two updated raiders-and only one of them has more than one trick (the Hoh'sus).

So...take the Qorgh raptor-it's usually the FIRST raptor a new KDF touches, and give it teh Norgh treatment-turn it into a Tier 5 ship. Give it a high turn rate (17 maybe, not as high as equivalent FEdscorts of the same tier) and Bugship-equivalent shielding...and 4, not 5, tac consoles. (since the Devs are eXTREMELY reluctant to give KDF both 5 Tac consoles, AND the ability to get out of their own way...) add 1 Lt. Uni slot.

TWO retrofits (well, one retrofit, and one Retro-of-a-retrofit), each close to but not exactly matching the Bugship's performance envelope, each having something that the other two lack.

at least, that's my two strips of latinum.

Note that I, as a player, would probably never USE a "Bugship killer" chassis even if it were available to me, given that I have this irrational (toonicidal?) love for the Bird of Prey class, and it's NOT a good fit for the role (which is why those rare times I GET a bugship kill are so cool. same for a Vesta kill, Timeship kill, etc. etc.)
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Last edited by patrickngo; 02-09-2013 at 01:24 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 225
02-10-2013, 06:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Like I said, I don't WANT to see the Bugship nerfed-I want it to have some competition other than "Buy a Bugship".

In tabletop wargaming, there is a sort-of-rule in how features are developed that can be summed up as the 40/40/20 rule.

Properly balanced, 40% of the time a team of equal skill (either team) will win-that is, both sides have a flat 40% chance based on skill and gear. the other 20% is dumb luck and random factors.

the problem with the Bugship is that it's JUST good enough to break that 40%-a team with one vs. a team without one, shifts the balance to somewhere in the area of 50% vs. 30%, with the same 20% "Dumb luck" effect. when one assumes equal levels of skill on both sides, equivalent component gearing, similar passives, similar team composition (aka Ceterus Paribus in economics terms)

The solution is NOT to nerf-nerfing is BAD. The solution is to introduce ship-types at the faction-exclusive level (i.e. non-lockbox) that can shift that 20% back to the middle of the graph.

The Devs came pretty close with the Fleetscorts (Patrol and Tactical), but that's only for one side of what is (supposedly) a two-faction game, and it was ONLY close-maybe a 5% shift, given that the bugship's still got turn rates and shields over it's nearest competition.

45/20/35 is still doable for a relatively balanced game, assuming some restriction were to apply to the 'top ship' that does not apply anywhere else-but that's adding needless complexity to the system, and is a Nerf (Nerfs are BAAAD.)

A better solution would be to introduce 'competitor' designs at the Fleetship level (Fleetships ARE character bound, after all, and costly in their own right). Since the Bugship's got 3 out of 3 for speed/shield/firepower, a few designs with 2 out of 3 (and different between Fed and Klink), but running some alternative advantage (say, bonus power the Bug doesn't get on the fed side, integral Battlecloak on the KDF side) should be sufficient.

Possibly an update to the "Smallboy" Escort on the Fed side-give it a higher turn rate and a 5th TC, and 5% more power available in 2/3 slots-thus it's still weak (.77 shield multiplier, small crew, thin hull) but has TEETH (5 tac consoles like it's big brother) and MOVE (a Fedscort that has Bug turn rates) add 1 ens. uni slot.

The paradigm with Raptors is that they're kind of hard to manuever and get on target, and they rely on conventional cloak instead of Battlecloak. It may not be optimal to upgrade the Raptor into a Bugship competitor, since the KDF already has a chassis that moves LIKE a bugship (the Bird of Prey), but lacks both weapons, and weapons feeding consoles. unfortunately we already GOT two updated raiders-and only one of them has more than one trick (the Hoh'sus).

So...take the Qorgh raptor-it's usually the FIRST raptor a new KDF touches, and give it teh Norgh treatment-turn it into a Tier 5 ship. Give it a high turn rate (17 maybe, not as high as equivalent FEdscorts of the same tier) and Bugship-equivalent shielding...and 4, not 5, tac consoles. (since the Devs are eXTREMELY reluctant to give KDF both 5 Tac consoles, AND the ability to get out of their own way...) add 1 Lt. Uni slot.

TWO retrofits (well, one retrofit, and one Retro-of-a-retrofit), each close to but not exactly matching the Bugship's performance envelope, each having something that the other two lack.

at least, that's my two strips of latinum.

Note that I, as a player, would probably never USE a "Bugship killer" chassis even if it were available to me, given that I have this irrational (toonicidal?) love for the Bird of Prey class, and it's NOT a good fit for the role (which is why those rare times I GET a bugship kill are so cool. same for a Vesta kill, Timeship kill, etc. etc.)



If they nerf my bug i will quit,,,i highly doubt they will nerf it as too many people spent much money or countless hours/weeks grinding to get it.

I would be perfectly fine with them upgrading some other escorts,,,maybe up their turn rate 1-2 points, higher impulse mod.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 226
02-10-2013, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus614 View Post
If they nerf my bug i will quit,,,i highly doubt they will nerf it as too many people spent much money or countless hours/weeks grinding to get it.
Priceless...and you know what? if they do not buff my nebula I will quit as well....but wait, they do not care, because they already have my money.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 227
02-10-2013, 06:18 AM
[Deep Breath]

Leave it alone. The bug, just, leave it alone. It might have been lightyears ahead of every other escort ever at one point, but with the introduction of Fleet Ships, it's not nearly so far above every other possible escort that it's an unbeatable monster. Aquitaine hit the nail on the head a bunch posts back.

It IS the best escort. Period. Flat out.

It is not some sort of Lovecraftian-inspired fire-breathing tentacle monster sent to violate you in your bed at night. Virtually all of what's out of whack with it is out of whack with every other ship in the game, chiefly, the massive ballooning of survivability across all ships care of the poorly designed passives on things like Elite Fleet Shields and rep system heals. All of which profoundly improve the durability of ships like the bug which are designed around mitigating damage and maintaining useful combat endurance by not getting hit.

/JM2c
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 228
02-10-2013, 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Priceless...and you know what? if they do not buff my nebula I will quit as well....but wait, they do not care, because they already have my money.


Priceless to you as you dont have one and hate others that do,,,for those of us who do have it,,,we spent a lot of money and or a hell of a lot of time grinding to get a ship with these stats and for them to turn around and nerf it is bogus.

If they want to up some stats on other escorts thats fine.

Dont nerf what i worked hard for as well as dropped money on too.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 229
02-10-2013, 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus614 View Post
Priceless to you as you dont have one and hate others that do,,,for those of us who do have it,,,we spent a lot of money and or a hell of a lot of time grinding to get a ship with these stats and for them to turn around and nerf it is bogus.

If they want to up some stats on other escorts thats fine.

Dont nerf what i worked hard for as well as dropped money on too.
Except you don't own it. It's just another ride in the theme park Cryptic owns.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 230
02-10-2013, 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
Except you don't own it. It's just another ride in the theme park Cryptic owns.
Doesn't matter-he paid for the license to use it.

I bumped into one that HAD to be a "Lucky drop" from a lockbox today over Ker'rat-I say that, because my BoP just isn't quick AND hard-hitting enough to take down a Jem'bug that's even half-ass properly equipped on my onesies, and the pilot didn't even TRY to evade or do any self-defense buffs.

(How do I know this? because with that Impulse mod an turn rate, I know for a fact I can't keep up with one...)

What makes it unusual, is that I was able to chase down and kill this gentleman not once, but twice in the same instance.


NOT a Decloak ambush, chase-down-and-kill.

which is, statistically, damned near impossible in what I'm running unless the opposition pilot's green as grass with a bad build, sitting AFK or letting a bot do the driving.

which of course goes to "Thank Finagle there's bad pilots or I'd never get any kills at all."
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
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