Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,508
# 21
02-02-2013, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorbane View Post
Something else that needs to change is the name calling from both sides. "Whiny authors" and "entitled grinders" both need to understand that both sides have legitimate concerns. Name calling will just turn into more name calling which will not help any legitimate discussion.
Thank You, Zorbane.
This is exactly the opinion I am trying to raise in myself.


I refer anyone with any opinion on the matter to this post.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=10

Let's start talking about solutions instead of putting all this energy into fighting with each other. Fights like this are counter productive.

I'm done with name calling and stupid fights about whats the right kind of play and who believes who is entitled to what , where and why. Anyone who actually wants to productively join in a discussion about how to improve the Foundry experience are welcome to join that other thread.

I am requesting that the mods shut this thread down.
It is an invitation to more bitterness between people.

I wrote it early this morning before I'd had my cup of Earl Grey, Hot.

peace
please join the other thread for constructive discussion where we're done calling each other names and actually trying to figure things out.

Let this thread die.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16,264
# 22
02-03-2013, 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirksplat View Post
I agree with this post, but I'd go even further.

I'd like to return to a time when there was a complete disconnect between the Foundry and what this game has become. This rewards system is privileging a MMO style of game play where players seek out the most X for the least amount of Y.

The Foundry should be about stories for the sake of stories, not for the sake of filling a bucket.
I disagree with not having any reward. But yeah, the current reward is a bit too tempting for people to want to farm it.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,486
# 23
02-03-2013, 06:54 PM
Here's what needs to be done, in order.

1) Foundry authors make peace. All of them. Name-calling and "my needs are more important than your needs" get us less than nowhere.

2) Get rid of the recent nerfs made to the Foundry. Changing "Timid Creature" fixed nothing, it just amplified the general bitterness of the issue.

3) Either abolish Foundry rewards, or make them inferior to those of devote grind missions. That way the grinders are busy grinding in the designated areas, and story authors can craft stories without worrying about reviews complaining about length and content.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,823
# 24
02-03-2013, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
Here's what needs to be done, in order.

1) Foundry authors make peace. All of them. Name-calling and "my needs are more important than your needs" get us less than nowhere.
This I 100% agree with. This situation really has gotten out of control. There is no need for people to be so abusive towards each other and to shout down or bury productive discussions.

Quote:
2) Get rid of the recent nerfs made to the Foundry. Changing "Timid Creature" fixed nothing, it just amplified the general bitterness of the issue.
I disagree with this; I think one should have to work for one's rewards. But I am NOT for eliminating grinders. I mean, when I have a new build to test, that's the kind of mission I'll need to see just how much I can handle coming at me all at once, without messing up an STF team during the learning curve.

Quote:
3) Either abolish Foundry rewards, or make them inferior to those of devote grind missions. That way the grinders are busy grinding in the designated areas, and story authors can craft stories without worrying about reviews complaining about length and content.
I'm not even sure changing the rewards is necessary. I really think that the biggest problem is the UI and the fact that grinders and story missions are on the same list and rating system. Separating them so that people can see which is which and not view one list cluttered up with missions they don't want and are no longer tempted to ue the rating system to sort punitively would solve it. Want story? Click this tab. Want a grinder? Click this one instead.

Some of us have been hashing out how that might look in the Tagging thread.

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 25
02-03-2013, 07:21 PM
I really do think toning down the rewards so that the Foundry isn't the fastest way to grind would be helpful. Leave a decent reward, but not one that is amazing. I actually have nothing against Battleship Royal Rumble. Combat missions can be fun, but most of the other grind missions were just ridiculous. Also, we don't need a dozen different rumble missions either, all rated higher than story missions.

I'm not even going to go into the fact the rest of the game is just about grinding. I wish someone besides PWE had bought Cryptic at this point. There are other F2P models that have proven successful. That's all I'll say about that.

Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. The town symphony placed an ad in the paper advertising free drinks. In response, a bunch of bikers showed up and started drinking, fighting, belching, revving their engines and otherwise making a nuisance of themselves. The bikers then claimed that the symphony was a great place, but that no one wants to listen to classical music, so instead heavy metal should be played. The problem here wasn't that no one wanted to hear a symphony, it was that the advertising strategy and incentive was not matched to the proper crowd.


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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 670
# 26
02-03-2013, 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulberat View Post
This I 100% agree with. This situation really has gotten out of control. There is no need for people to be so abusive towards each other and to shout down or bury productive discussions.



I disagree with this; I think one should have to work for one's rewards. But I am NOT for eliminating grinders. I mean, when I have a new build to test, that's the kind of mission I'll need to see just how much I can handle coming at me all at once, without messing up an STF team during the learning curve.



I'm not even sure changing the rewards is necessary. I really think that the biggest problem is the UI and the fact that grinders and story missions are on the same list and rating system. Separating them so that people can see which is which and not view one list cluttered up with missions they don't want and are no longer tempted to ue the rating system to sort punitively would solve it. Want story? Click this tab. Want a grinder? Click this one instead.

Some of us have been hashing out how that might look in the Tagging thread.








Option 2 is the only thing that will calm the majority of the player-base down that is ticked off and attacking the Forum Authors.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 27
02-03-2013, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulberat View Post
I'm not even sure changing the rewards is necessary. I really think that the biggest problem is the UI and the fact that grinders and story missions are on the same list and rating system. Separating them so that people can see which is which and not view one list cluttered up with missions they don't want and are no longer tempted to ue the rating system to sort punitively would solve it. Want story? Click this tab. Want a grinder? Click this one instead.

Some of us have been hashing out how that might look in the Tagging thread.
I think changing the rewards is absolutely essential. There are always going to be problems as long as long as shorter missions are privileged over longer missions and that is how it currently is. The ideal mission is not one second longer than 15 minutes, and has nothing but combat. That provides the most rewards. Anything longer or less combat intensive is automatically inferior in terms of rewards for time spent.

People didn't play the clickies because they thought they were amazing, but they provided the best return on your time. We're just one small step removed from that now. The reward structure has been inherently unfair from the very start. The rewards, not the player base, are responsible for the type of missions we're seeing. Don't doubt for a second that if a 2 hour mission gave better reward/time than the current grinders that people would be playing them instead. They might not like them any more than the clickies, but they would play them. It has nothing to do with the missions themselves, it's the system that is responsible for what people are choosing to play.

In addition, I think its dangerous to have the Foundry be on the cutting edge of grinding. It maximizes the incentive to try to exploit the system. If you make it just a little bit less efficient you take away much of that impetus. If we don't back away from the edge, the Foundry features are going to constantly end up getting nerfed in order to try to stop all the abusive behavior that continually occurs, and it's going to be worse for all of us.


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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 28
02-03-2013, 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redsnake721 View Post
Option 2 is the only thing that will calm the majority of the player-base down that is ticked off and attacking the Forum Authors.
There's like a handful of you guys in here. Most of the player base has never even laid eyes on the forums.


Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 295
# 29
02-03-2013, 07:32 PM
With the recent nerfing session, those that choose to play and or write those looong drawn out foundry "missions" will actually be hurt with what you call a barrage of negative ratings.

That negativity will continue till its un-nerfed...Sad but true.. However even though I stated in a few threads how I feel I will not be rating up nor down on any of those missions as I do in fact read the descriptions and decide from there if I want to play it or not.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,823
# 30
02-03-2013, 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagorak View Post
Also, we don't need a dozen different rumble missions either, all rated higher than story missions.
Putting them under separate tabs means it doesn't matter which type is higher--jusy be clicking the correct tab, you'd only see missions of the type you want rated against each other, not against missions of the other type.

Quote:
I'm not even going to go into the fact the rest of the game is just about grinding. I wish someone besides PWE had bought Cryptic at this point. There are other F2P models that have proven successful. That's all I'll say about that.
Agreed that the in-game economy is messed up. Other inputs need to be devised by Cryptic--AND more content as opposed to grinds.

Quote:
Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. The town symphony placed an ad in the paper advertising free drinks. In response, a bunch of bikers showed up and started drinking, fighting, belching, revving their engines and otherwise making a nuisance of themselves. The bikers then claimed that the symphony was a great place, but that no one wants to listen to classical music, so instead heavy metal should be played. The problem here wasn't that no one wanted to hear a symphony, it was that the advertising strategy and incentive was not matched to the proper crowd.
I disagree with calling grinders the "wrong" crowd. But I would suggest creating a separate venue for that metal concert--so both can have what they want without disturbing each other.

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