Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 841
# 31
02-03-2013, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulberat View Post
I disagree with calling grinders the "wrong" crowd. But I would suggest creating a separate venue for that metal concert--so both can have what they want without disturbing each other.
They're the wrong crowd because they are motivated by nothing other than maximizing how fast they get resources. Just wait and see, if the rewards aren't reduced so the Foundry isn't the best way to grind it's going to be a revolving door of nerf after nerf.

With a UGC system there are always going to be ways to exploit things if you're motivated enough to find them. We've already basically lost the timid creatures because of that. The next thing that can be nerfed is having friendly groups help you fight enemies. Then we can remove invisible walls because they can allow afk missions by having enemy groups fight each other, and not the player.

It's better to make it slightly less optimal to use the Foundry for grinding before we lose half the functionality due to a few people abusing it (or they will claim they're the majority).

Grinders and people who like combat missions are not the same thing. Combat missions have been there all along. There were those who liked them, but overall no one played them anymore than any other Foundry missions. It's not like there was this huge unsatisfied demand for them that suddenly was met. The grinders didn't care until they learned they could get rewards faster than anywhere else. That's all the true grinders care about. They couldn't give a damn about what type of mission it is or anything else. If they could get a better return in an STF or Tau Dewa they would be gone tomorrow.

So, I'm pretty firmly convinced that grinders should not be encouraged to use the Foundry. I see this problem as being about a lot more than combat vs story. People who want combat missions, to test builds, or just because they enjoy them, are more than welcome, but that type of person is distinct in motivation from the grinders.


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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,060
# 32
02-03-2013, 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redsnake721 View Post
Option 2 is the only thing that will calm the majority of the player-base down that is ticked off and attacking the Forum Authors.
Option two would be like buying the screaming toddler the toy it wants so it'll stop being annoying.

The nerf was deserved because it was an exploit pure and simple. There is no legitimate aspect in the arguments against the nerf. However, a better nerf is needed because the current one takes a tool out of the authors hands.
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Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 27
# 33
02-03-2013, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagorak View Post
With a UGC system there are always going to be ways to exploit things if you're motivated enough to find them. We've already basically lost the timid creatures because of that. The next thing that can be nerfed is having friendly groups help you fight enemies. Then we can remove invisible walls because they can allow afk missions by having enemy groups fight each other, and not the player.
Doesn't really require invisible walls, does it? Visible ones would do the job about as well.

For that matter, the first mission of the sort I ever saw had nothing stopping the player from messing it up if they felt so inclined, but apparently few people have, or at least not enough to disqualify it from IOR.

I've actually been wondering if anyone doing story missions has made use of such "hidden machinery" for them. It sounds like there aren't any actual timer functions available in the foundry, but I could easily imagine something like that being used to, say, cause additional guards to appear if the player dawdles too much in what's supposed to be a time-critical raid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twg042370 View Post
Option two would be like buying the screaming toddler the toy it wants so it'll stop being annoying.
...

You know, if you want to actually influence people to your point of view, implicitly calling your opponents children might *not* be such a great idea.

Besides, it's not like this change has that much of an effect.

-Morgan.

Last edited by morganni; 02-03-2013 at 08:13 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,474
# 34
02-03-2013, 08:14 PM
It doesn't require invisible walls any longer. The next gen of AFK grinders has figured something simple out.

We might lose the patrol functionality.

Last edited by kirksplat; 02-03-2013 at 08:16 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 841
# 35
02-03-2013, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by morganni View Post
I've actually been wondering if anyone doing story missions has made use of such "hidden machinery" for them. It sounds like there aren't any actual timer functions available in the foundry, but I could easily imagine something like that being used to, say, cause additional guards to appear if the player dawdles too much in what's supposed to be a time-critical raid.
You're right that visible walls would probably work fine, too. So, I guess invisible walls are safe!

Yeah, I think a few missions have done stuff like this, or so I've heard. Unfortunately it's not really that practical because you only have access to so many enemies, etc. It's kind of clunky, but it can be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirksplat View Post
It doesn't require invisible walls any longer. The next gen of AFK grinders has figured something simple out.

We might lose the patrol functionality.
See, that hadn't even occurred to me. *sigh*

However, the point remains, if we're going to start losing features because they can be abused for gain, it would be better to remove the motivation (excessive rewards) rather than reverting the Foundry back to its initial release.


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Last edited by nagorak; 02-03-2013 at 08:29 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,474
# 36
02-03-2013, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagorak View Post
However, the point remains, if we're going to start losing features because they can be abused for gain, it would be better to remove the motivation (excessive rewards) rather than reverting the Foundry back to its initial release.
Agreed.

/10chars
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 37
02-03-2013, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagorak View Post
I really do think toning down the rewards so that the Foundry isn't the fastest way to grind would be helpful. Leave a decent reward, but not one that is amazing. I actually have nothing against Battleship Royal Rumble. Combat missions can be fun, but most of the other grind missions were just ridiculous. Also, we don't need a dozen different rumble missions either, all rated higher than story missions.

I'm not even going to go into the fact the rest of the game is just about grinding. I wish someone besides PWE had bought Cryptic at this point. There are other F2P models that have proven successful. That's all I'll say about that.

Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. The town symphony placed an ad in the paper advertising free drinks. In response, a bunch of bikers showed up and started drinking, fighting, belching, revving their engines and otherwise making a nuisance of themselves. The bikers then claimed that the symphony was a great place, but that no one wants to listen to classical music, so instead heavy metal should be played. The problem here wasn't that no one wanted to hear a symphony, it was that the advertising strategy and incentive was not matched to the proper crowd.
Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. Both sides of the debate are as children seeking the approval from a parent or authority. Both are given a list of chores to complete. The grinder child completes all his tasks as efficiently as possible then happily moves on to something else. The story child moves about augustly performing every action with grandiose detail.

At the end of the day, the story child has completed but this one task. Both children are given a bag of candy for their efforts but the story child is not satisfied. "I deserve more candy," the story child exclaims. "Look at the magnificent work I did." The parent takes candy from the grinder child and gives it to the story child. The story child is now satiated and their tantrum pacified. The grinder child sighs as he relinquishes his candy knowing the other will spend additional time at the dentist later rather than playing ball.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,034
# 38
02-03-2013, 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloctoad View Post
Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. Both sides of the debate are as children seeking the approval from a parent or authority. Both are given a list of chores to complete. The grinder child completes all his tasks as efficiently as possible then happily moves on to something else. The story child moves about augustly performing every action with grandiose detail.

At the end of the day, the story child has completed but this one task. Both children are given a bag of candy for their efforts but the story child is not satisfied. "I deserve more candy," the story child exclaims. "Look at the magnificent work I did." The parent takes candy from the grinder child and gives it to the story child. The story child is now satiated and their tantrum pacified. The grinder child sighs as he relinquishes his candy knowing the other will spend additional time at the dentist later rather than playing ball.
In reality, the "story children" are looking for very different rewards than the "grinder children". The former creates story missions because they enjoy doing so; the latter created grind missions because it's the easiest way to get stuff that's not Foundry-related.

Solution? Make it so the easiest way to get said stuff is not the Foundry. That satisfies both sides.
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Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 27
# 39
02-03-2013, 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagorak View Post
Yeah, I think a few missions have done stuff like this, or so I've heard. Unfortunately it's not really that practical because you only have access to so many enemies, etc. It's kind of clunky, but it can be done.
Hmmm. I still find myself rather charmed by the idea. I'd probably try doing something like it, but I have no idea for a framing story more detailed than "Invade the enemy fortress guarded by the best regiment!".

Personally, I'm not sure all the rewards from the foundry are too much, but I think maybe it's too many different things. If it were great for dilithithium and weak on other stuff, or great on fleet marks and weak on other stuff, or something, would it be like this? (Well, given how much of a great gaping pit that needs to be filled with dilithium the fleet system provides, maybe it'd be exactly the same there.)

What's really interesting is how time-controlled all the foundry rewards are. You can only get so many drops per character per day. You can only get the wrapper rewards every 15 minutes (or 30, if you aren't cycling multiple characters). It begs the question, with the rate of return so thoroughly controlled, how important is it exactly *what* people do to get that return? Of course, one can then argue what level it should be set at, but that's almost like a separate issue. What bothers me is that under this timer structure, story missions are noticably penalized.

Not that this is unique to the foundry. Part of why it's taking me forever to do the Romulan episodes is that there isn't much I want to be had from them, and (unlike, say, The 2800), I'm just not that interested in the story. Foundry or no foundry, it seems like the most effective content for getting dilithium is also the most repetitive.

-Morgan.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 40
02-03-2013, 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
In reality, the "story children" are looking for very different rewards than the "grinder children". The former creates story missions because they enjoy doing so; the latter created grind missions because it's the easiest way to get stuff that's not Foundry-related.

Solution? Make it so the easiest way to get said stuff is not the Foundry. That satisfies both sides.
Naturally. But certain elements at this table continue to throw their weight around proclaiming only their flavor of quark exudes acceptable taste. But there's always another spin to be found.
All cloaks should be canon.
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