Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,425
# 211
02-22-2013, 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Maybe it isn't that team healing is so advanced. Maybe it's that team alpha play blows. Sad to face that, but "oh hay this ****'s impossible to do" sounds so much like "oh hay this ****'s to hard for me". Otherwise known as...."Well in highly advanced team play blah blah blah."

Oh unless it's five cruisers with extends and Doff's that serve tea. We all know that's crazy.
how much highly advanced team play have you even been exposed to? it really is different there, healing is overwhelmingly stronger then damage there.

when healing is stronger than damage in a match, something really easy to do, only surprise spike delivered faster then a healer can react to is going to kill anything. not even my most tac buffed single cannon excelsior build is going to deal its damage quickly enough to kill someone, unless the healers or my target are asleep. my kdf cruiser? no problem, in matches like that, ive practically 1 shot ships will well delivered torps and cannons. you of anyone should know how effective spike at the right time is, with 2 heal boats on a team, multiple escort alphas are needed, along with big debuffs. throw in strong fed cruiser pressure and, well it makes almost no difference. if the target isn't dead in 5 seconds the healers will win.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 212
02-22-2013, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Maybe it isn't that team healing is so advanced. Maybe it's that team alpha play blows. Sad to face that, but "oh hay this ****'s impossible to do" sounds so much like "oh hay this ****'s to hard for me". Otherwise known as...."Well in highly advanced team play blah blah blah."

Oh unless it's five cruisers with extends and Doff's that serve tea. We all know that's crazy.
A single alpha run really isn't all that potent against this game's most talented team healers (and yes, I'm aware of stacking). If you read logs after a team game, healing always outstrips damage dealt... and even with a decent window of opportunity and a full stack, a single nuke (or even just a disable for that window) is all it takes to cripple DPS at its heels.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,753
# 213 cruisers are underpowered
02-22-2013, 11:44 AM
Still? Even after all the complaints? What gives?
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Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15
# 214
02-22-2013, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
how much highly advanced team play have you even been exposed to? it really is different there, healing is overwhelmingly stronger then damage there.

when healing is stronger than damage in a match, something really easy to do, only surprise spike delivered faster then a healer can react to is going to kill anything. not even my most tac buffed single cannon excelsior build is going to deal its damage quickly enough to kill someone, unless the healers or my target are asleep. my kdf cruiser? no problem, in matches like that, ive practically 1 shot ships will well delivered torps and cannons. you of anyone should know how effective spike at the right time is, with 2 heal boats on a team, multiple escort alphas are needed, along with big debuffs. throw in strong fed cruiser pressure and, well it makes almost no difference. if the target isn't dead in 5 seconds the healers will win.
Well if a team actually has only one healboat, things are pretty simple. Focus on one target, so myself as a healer spends his CDs on the teammate. Opposing team quickly refocusses on the healer, in this example myself and... boom she goes. When my supporting skills are on CD, even with EPtS2, high shield power level, activated Rotate Shield Frequency and of course constant manual shield distributing, I can't stand an Alpha from a skilled Bug pilot. That actually works all the time.
Once the opposing team figured that out, it works. Either I have to keep a skill or two reserved for myself and the chance a teammate gets killed raises or I spend those skills to keep him alive and get killed myself.
Thatbof course is a typical PuG situation where nobody really helps each other.

Appart from that I have to say playing a healer is less and less enjoyable for me. Back a few months or a year, you could actuay help and support your team beyond healing. Running 6-8 beams with a high weapon power actually could do damage, even on a healboat. Today? It doesn't matter at all. In quite some matches I could strip off my weapons and nobody would care. Even on high power levels beams don't matter. since we are more and more forced to run higher healing power levels, beams don't have the energy. So we could use torps, since these are independent from power settings. Hower with typical healboat turnrates ranging between 5 and 7, a cruiser/carrierbcan barely use them.

So I am wondering if we really face a shipclass problem here or is it more a matter of weapons, skills and powerlevels? I mean even an offensive cruiser is better off using cannons than equipping beam arrays.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,425
# 215
02-22-2013, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nayukan View Post
So I am wondering if we really face a shipclass problem here or is it more a matter of weapons, skills and powerlevels? I mean even an offensive cruiser is better off using cannons than equipping beam arrays.
this is why i have suggested fixing fireing cycles on beam arrays and single cannons. its not just the DPS that makes DHCs effective, its the fireing cycle. you know the difference between DCs and DHCs? its just the fireing cycle. every other weapon has the same basic firenig cycle as DCs, and compared to DHCs dcs are considered trash. THAT is the problem, more then the ships, more then the station powers, more then even the user skill.

if single cannons had a DHC fireing cycle, and beam arrays at least in the front arc, had 2 or even 1 shot per cycle, you wouldn't have to chage their dps, they would simply be effective. because they would drop a shield facing after their firing cycle because they would hit so abruptly, potentially. imagine using torps effectively on a fed cruiser that uses beam arrays, gives me goosebumps.

the way those weapons deal damage now, a little bit at a time over about 4 seconds, the manual distribution keeps pace with it, and ships that arent using DHCs have to shoot through 4 shield facings worth of damage before they can damage hull, most kills gotten from DHCs are gotten when the other 3 shield facings are relatively healthy still.

with all the healing passives, manual distribution, doffs and TT, pressure damage has no effect in a team battle. at least singles and beam arrays need a fundamental change, that change being to their firing cycle.
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Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 258
# 216
02-22-2013, 01:40 PM
issue here is Spike and Heal need to come down they are in balance with each other somewhat but beams are just outclassed by even passive regeneration these days.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 217
02-22-2013, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
this is why i have suggested fixing fireing cycles on beam arrays and single cannons. its not just the DPS that makes DHCs effective, its the fireing cycle. you know the difference between DCs and DHCs? its just the fireing cycle. every other weapon has the same basic firenig cycle as DCs, and compared to DHCs dcs are considered trash. THAT is the problem, more then the ships, more then the station powers, more then even the user skill.

if single cannons had a DHC fireing cycle, and beam arrays at least in the front arc, had 2 or even 1 shot per cycle, you wouldn't have to chage their dps, they would simply be effective. because they would drop a shield facing after their firing cycle because they would hit so abruptly, potentially. imagine using torps effectively on a fed cruiser that uses beam arrays, gives me goosebumps.

the way those weapons deal damage now, a little bit at a time over about 4 seconds, the manual distribution keeps pace with it, and ships that arent using DHCs have to shoot through 4 shield facings worth of damage before they can damage hull, most kills gotten from DHCs are gotten when the other 3 shield facings are relatively healthy still.

with all the healing passives, manual distribution, doffs and TT, pressure damage has no effect in a team battle. at least singles and beam arrays need a fundamental change, that change being to their firing cycle.
Exactly this. Only fixing the cycles is needed. Hell, just gives beam One hit per volley, with same dps but greater burst and that's it. Less hits, more burst and better power management. And on top of that, it would look much better visually.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 218
02-22-2013, 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Exactly this. Only fixing the cycles is needed. Hell, just gives beam One hit per volley, with same dps but greater burst and that's it. Less hits, more burst and better power management. And on top of that, it would look much better visually.
You'd also have to make sure beams always start firing at the same time.

Part of the problem with beams is that they are much more affected by drain than DHCs. Some of that is the firing cycle -- DHCs get their damage out before drain kicks in, and then recharge while they aren't firing anyway -- but part of it is because not all the beams in the arc always start at the same time.

If you have all your weapons on a tray where you can see them, it's not unusual to see one or two beams fire about a second before the rest. This especially seems to happen when combined with an ability which buffs just one beam, like BO. Since they aren't all starting at the same time, some beams are already experiencing drain before their first firing cycle.

Honestly, Cryptic ought to just get rid of weapon drain. The way that weapon power worked originally, it had a point, but as it is now it hurts the least powerful weapons most.
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