Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 31
02-03-2013, 01:50 AM
about the arc thing, he was talking about the beam broadsie, you get more compensated by using cannons and turrets, than all beams, so the arc is "less"

i think this is dragging a bit and all are posting the unbalanced things, which is good i think, but the point of the post is the cruisers of the list i made, they are not used on pvp, and, come on, premades ? what is that ? 5 cruisers ? dont be that ignorant, are you saying 5 regents or 5 oddys are better than 5 jem bugs ? dont fool me sad animal.

carriers dont loose anything compared to cruisers ( and some of the carriers have even more shield and hull ) i will say this as many times as i need. so cruisers need something to compensate that.

please tell me why the advanced escort is balanced to the hec ? because it has 5 tac consoles ? that would be your justification right ? so, tactical console slots are more important than engineer console slots. still think theres nothing wrong with escorts/cruisers ?

about the doffs im not sure about what it would make more impact, nerf the apo in itself, or to do something about the doffs, but 1 of them is needed for sure

-boost cruiseres on the list
-correct jam procs
-revamp of skills / new skills
-boost sci shield stripping skills ( cpb, tachyon beam )

this is my dream.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,434
# 32
02-03-2013, 02:00 AM
Most major issues with cruisers.

Beam arrays normally drain to much power for such slow cycle rates, can be easily fixed by disallowing them to fire together and with long 4sec cycles w/4sec cd's.

Weak use of engineering boffs, as you limit variety with boffs especially in the commander rank dept. Commander boff skills need just as much versatility as LT. & LT.Cmdr. but instead get poor selection of useable skills.

Hull and Shield strength mods a complete joke as tier 5 escorts can almost easily match that by very few points, Cruisers definitely need a bigger boost to hull and shield strength numbers, or escorts need their numbers reduced.

Maneuverability as in capable defense points is greately done wrong, not only do escorts move faster in general but retain a higher defense bonus than cruisers for the same given skill points spent in defense. Firing radius is not a viable excuse as any ship can make use of BA's wide firing arc.

Less Tac consoles on mostly every ship but a rare few versus escorts. That in itself is no less than a possible 30%+dmg mitigation.

1 more useable weapon slot over typical escort!!!! WoW that's gonna be a gamebreaker there let me tell you. A typical cruiser carries by far more weapons capability than most ships, but is limited to being no better than an escort in this dept.

1-2 more eng consoles over typical escort!!! These help but again are not really gamebreakers. A poor way to add to the cruisers weak defense and hull strength making it somewhat more survivable.

These are some biggies here and the list can keep growing easily!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 33
02-03-2013, 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Wrong.
True



Quote:
Wrong.
True



Quote:
Depends entirely on range and positioning.
You are right, when flying the most mobile and fastest ships ingame, I also would always stay 10 km away from my target escpacially if my cannons do the most damage on close distance
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 225
# 34
02-03-2013, 02:20 AM
to the op.. well DUH lolcruiserfail
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,643
# 35
02-03-2013, 02:34 AM
cruisers being UP is a very narrow scope of the problem. its that DHC's and the insane healing and anti spike measures to counter DHCs make everything else a joke.


beam arrays, make them fire 1 shot per cycle with their current dps. being more like a DHC, they would actually have an effect when they hit. or only let beams be like this on fed cruisers, in only the forward arc. then at least they would have beams correct in game.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 880
# 36
02-03-2013, 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
True
Well, the part about engineering captains was, though that may change along with FAW. There's a reason why most premade teams don't want to run with less than three science captains though, and engineering bridge officer abilities are just as good as any other, though the only viable options at ensign are EPtX or ET1 (if you're taking it for the clear and not the heal)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
True
Beams have a 250 degree arc, regular cannons are 180. 250 > 180, therefore your claim that cannons have a larger arc than beams is false.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
You are right, when flying the most mobile and fastest ships ingame, I also would always stay 10 km away from my target escpacially if my cannons do the most damage on close distance
Sure, if it's your life mission not to have that cruiser broadside you you're going to make it difficult for him to do so. But it's a 5v5 game. If you're trying to take down a target, or there's a bursty escort targeting you as well you aren't going to worry all too much about the cruiser 4-8km away broadsiding you, with good reason.

Now don't get me wrong, I think with the current state of the game cruisers aren't needed outside of a few specialty builds (though again, that may change with the next iteration of FAW), but I'm still going to call you on your wrongheaded arguments.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 13
# 37
02-03-2013, 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Beams have a 250 degree arc, regular cannons are 180. 250 > 180, therefore your claim that cannons have a larger arc than beams is false.
That calc is useless! No one will attack a cruiser from broadside and with a fed cruiser, you cant do anything to get them in full weapon range.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 880
# 38
02-03-2013, 03:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlazolteotl80 View Post
That calc is useless! No one will attack a cruiser from broadside and with a fed cruiser, you cant do anything to get them in full weapon range.
There's just so much wrong with this statement....

1. In an arena match I don't care what direction a cruiser's weapons are pointing when they're called as the target. I care about lining up a kill as quickly and efficiently as possible.

2. Again, just because you're attacking a cruiser from outside his broadside arc doesn't mean that he's going to attack you back. If he's on a team, he'll focus on the kill target. If he's pugging and is semi-decent he'll either have positioned himself appropriately against his opponent or just picked one that's already in position.

3. A cruiser pilot with even the smallest amount of intelligence can line up a broadside on any target, at least for a small amount of time, with the combination of reverse with evasive and/or deuterium.

4. Single beams have very similar DPS to single cannons (cannons have higher DPS <5km, while beams win out >5km), but cannons can't broadside at all.

Last edited by hurleybird; 02-03-2013 at 03:55 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,643
# 39
02-03-2013, 04:55 AM
I have a simpler solution that doesn't involve the Nerfbat.

First, we take the class bonuses for each ship-class (raiders exempt-they're the weak sister of just about everything in the game stat-wise).

Now, we apply the following:

Double it for Cruisers.
Add 25% for Sci ships
Escorts stay the same.
BoPs/Raiders stay the same.

Change to the BOFF cooldowns:
Cruisers: reduce Eng. cooldowns by 50% (more uptime)
Sci ships: Reduce Science officer cooldown by 25%
Escorts: Reduce Tactical Boff power cooldowns by 5%
BoPs/Raiders: Reduce Battlecloak cooldown by 2 seconds.


What this reflects: Power plant size, mass, efficiencies of scale, whatever-the point being, it's going to take a LOT longer to strip the shielding off a Cruiser (of any type), Means the 'Scort's got to keep firing for LONGER, on the same facing, which limits his manuverability bonuses if he wants to drill through that thick hide. Meanwhile, the Cruiser's healing himself FASTER than an Escort with the same Engineering Boff powers, assuming DOFF abilities remain the same.

But wait, there's more...

Duty Officers: Link the number of actives to the classes:

Cruisers: 7 Duty Officers Space may be active.
Science ships/Escorts/Raiders/BoPs: 5 Space duty officers may be active (just like it is now).

7-1500 people (a typical T5 Cruiser) are a hell of a lot more likely to handle multitasking, than 30 to 150 people are.

Cumulative effect: Cruisers retain slow turn rates, relatively weak tactical officer seating, heavy engineering focus, and reliance on Beam and/or single cannon layouts. Escorts do not get nerfed, they remain the SAME (largely), with a small bonus to their direct-fire offensive capability, Sci ships gain additional powr to power their science effects (and can sling MORE of them, more quickly, than sci-focused cruisers or sci-focused Escorts). BoPs/Raiders do what BoPs/Raiders do-but with somewhat more difficulty.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 672
# 40
02-03-2013, 05:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
with this, these ships would be more resilient against more combat situations
This is the wrong approach.

The biggest problem in PVP these days is that the t4 shield passives, human boffs and resists from things like elite shields provide a huge amount of base regeneration that is independent of the ship classes (and embassy consoles and elite fleet weapons also provide heals). This free healing baseline is so powerful that it cannot be overcome by pressure damage anymore. This invalidates any builds whose main (and besides EWP pretty much only) offensive weapon is damage over time.

Boosting hull and shields will not help make cruisers more useful, since it's not their survivability that puts them at a disadvantage. The problem is an environment that has reduced their effectiveness as damage dealers to next to nothing and at the same time has opened up cruiser-style healing to other ship classes via hybrid boff layouts.
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