Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 41
02-03-2013, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
This is the wrong approach.

The biggest problem in PVP these days is that the t4 shield passives, human boffs and resists from things like elite shields provide a huge amount of base regeneration that is independent of the ship classes (and embassy consoles and elite fleet weapons also provide heals). This free healing baseline is so powerful that it cannot be overcome by pressure damage anymore. This invalidates any builds whose main (and besides EWP pretty much only) offensive weapon is damage over time.

Boosting hull and shields will not help make cruisers more useful, since it's not their survivability that puts them at a disadvantage. The problem is an environment that has reduced their effectiveness as damage dealers to next to nothing and at the same time has opened up cruiser-style healing to other ship classes via hybrid boff layouts.
Someone please give this mancom (see what I did there!) a beer. Cheers mate. It thrills me to read intellect.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 42
02-03-2013, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
This is the wrong approach.

[...]

at the same time has opened up cruiser-style healing to other ship classes via hybrid boff layouts.
So if I grind those things, I can slot beams in an escort, buff them with tac skills and still be both more effective beamer then cruiser while being as much tanky?

What is the reason for having cruisers in this game again?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 43
02-03-2013, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
So if I grind those things, I can slot beams in an escort, buff them with tac skills and still be both more effective beamer then cruiser while being as much tanky?

What is the reason for having cruisers in this game again?
I think you missed what Mancom was saying.

Currently escorts, because of all these things are healing much longer and more effective than they should be able to.

As a result, their window of opportunity to inflict damage against cruisers as significantly widened, while the time it takes cruisers to now inflict damage against escorts has lengthened, to the point where the maths of the equation falls heavily in favor of the escort.

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 02-03-2013 at 06:49 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 44
02-03-2013, 07:58 AM
mankomo ( xP ) - i didnt miss the point, what you said is known by everyone, those free heals can be used by anyone, not only escorts, and cruisers healings benefit more than escort ones because they are affected by the base hull / shield mod, i said " +hull ( still impractical ) i know how things are, so i came with the idea of the innate skills, but still i think that wouldnt make much sense after talking with some more folks

the problem is on the cruiser layout, comm eng, lt cm eng, and ensign eng, as the galaxy has, makes it useless, coz the skills you can use on it are eptX or eng team, making you unable to use eptX 2 or obligating you to use ET2, this type of layouts are terrebly limited, not only on boffs but on console slots too, the sweet point of plating consoles is 3, so if a cruiser have 4 or 5 eng console slots, they are ( for a point of view ) useless, because you would have to use an rcs or an universal console to fill those slots, which in an escort you wouldnt need to do so, because any tac console slot is much more usefull than any fourth or fifth eng console slot

the same unbalance is applied on tac skills, im talking about the APO, yes, make it 5secs effect or nerf the doffs, that would be the sollution, there are so many free proccs, heals, buffs and stuff, that stuff is making that extra hull on cruisers useless

back on my point, carriers dont loose nothing compared to cruisers while they gain 2 hangar bays, and some carriers have even more hull and shield than cruisers, thats why my idea of adding those innate skills for non carrier cruiser ships, to make the comparison more fair

there should be more skills, engineering skills are pretty limited, boarding party is removed by TT, aceton beam is removed hazard emitters, that leaves cruisers with almost no offensive skills, DEM would be a choise but with beams ? cannons ? =S
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 45
02-03-2013, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlazolteotl80 View Post
That calc is useless! No one will attack a cruiser from broadside and with a fed cruiser, you cant do anything to get them in full weapon range.
my escourt will attack a crusier from broadside, thoes beams dont hurt. im not really sure what happened but i dont seem to remember the last time i was forced off. maybe before the f2p era. what happned?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 46
02-03-2013, 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
This is the wrong approach.

The biggest problem in PVP these days is that the t4 shield passives, human boffs and resists from things like elite shields provide a huge amount of base regeneration that is independent of the ship classes (and embassy consoles and elite fleet weapons also provide heals). This free healing baseline is so powerful that it cannot be overcome by pressure damage anymore. This invalidates any builds whose main (and besides EWP pretty much only) offensive weapon is damage over time.

Boosting hull and shields will not help make cruisers more useful, since it's not their survivability that puts them at a disadvantage. The problem is an environment that has reduced their effectiveness as damage dealers to next to nothing and at the same time has opened up cruiser-style healing to other ship classes via hybrid boff layouts.
ahh ok lol should have read first. but still hilbert, when i havent even picked any sheild healing rep or fleet sheilds how do i account for taking broad sides as if it was nothing? only think i can think of is 2 sdo and the rsp while the bug ship is giving good shield hp. might need to hop back into my defiant for a bit.

Last edited by broken1981; 02-03-2013 at 08:14 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 679
# 47
02-03-2013, 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
ahh ok lol should have read first. but still hilbert, when i havent even picked any sheild healing rep or fleet sheilds how do i account for taking broad sides as if it was nothing? only think i can think of is 2 sdo and the rsp while the bug ship is giving good shield hp. might need to hop back into my defiant for a bit.
Usually the explanation is simple: the beam cruiser pilot sucks.

How many good beam cruiser pilots are there? If you exclude the main healers, there really aren't many good players flying these things.

I used to have great success with my tac/fleet excelsior, but now that T4 heals are more widespread, it's futile to shoot a target that has even a little bit of shield resists. Forcing a player to use heals on themselves beyond the self-only EPtS and the occasional ET is almost impossible.

If you like, we can test this sometime and see how my tac/excelsior performs against your ship. Maybe there is a variable that I haven't noticed yet.
http://hilbertguide.com
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 679
# 48
02-03-2013, 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
back on my point, carriers dont loose nothing compared to cruisers while they gain 2 hangar bays, and some carriers have even more hull and shield than cruisers, thats why my idea of adding those innate skills for non carrier cruiser ships, to make the comparison more fair

there should be more skills, engineering skills are pretty limited, boarding party is removed by TT, aceton beam is removed hazard emitters, that leaves cruisers with almost no offensive skills, DEM would be a choise but with beams ? cannons ? =S
Carriers lose two weapon slots. While pet spam is annoying, it's not doing all that much in terms of directed damage unless you have a full spam team that completely overloads any defenses.

The boff layout on ships like the Galaxy has only become too eng-heavy now that doffs reduce all kinds of cooldowns and remove the need for multiple copies of the important eng abilities.
http://hilbertguide.com
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 49
02-03-2013, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Usually the explanation is simple: the beam cruiser pilot sucks.

How many good beam cruiser pilots are there? If you exclude the main healers, there really aren't many good players flying these things.

I used to have great success with my tac/fleet excelsior, but now that T4 heals are more widespread, it's futile to shoot a target that has even a little bit of shield resists. Forcing a player to use heals on themselves beyond the self-only EPtS and the occasional ET is almost impossible.

If you like, we can test this sometime and see how my tac/excelsior performs against your ship. Maybe there is a variable that I haven't noticed yet.
You left out the Sci Console repair procs as well.

Still, I'd wait till FaW gets fixed. Who knows how 40 fixed FaW beams w/phased polaron procs would do to KDF anyway (generally only 1 human boff if that).

Also, as I mentioned before a boost to the base of Sci shield stripping powers would help both pressure and spike damage builds.

A bit off topic, now that there'sa pseudo AoE APA w/new Jem stuff and SNB doffs, which class in theory could take best advantage of this? Not to support that kind of build, but I wonder if Engineers would do best in that?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 339
# 50
02-03-2013, 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
my escourt will attack a crusier from broadside, thoes beams dont hurt. im not really sure what happened but i dont seem to remember the last time i was forced off. maybe before the f2p era. what happned?
Whatever Cryptic did to FAW may have effected beams across the board or they simply fell behind in comparison to Cannons with all the Doffs and Tac buffs that directly effect Cannons. But yeah, Beams aren't even effective for clearing spam anymore. Beams are only mildy more effective on a Sci ship piloted by a Sci captain because their dmg and acc can be boosted by Science debuffs.
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