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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,413
If you'd like to create another thread that is not going to cause flaming to occur (I mean, look at the title -- what do you expect?) with a better approach, feel free. And before this thread goes down the path I know it's going to go down on, /thread -Brandon

Challenge Accepted

A thread was started regarding the removal of rewards from the Foundry system.
I fully understand that there will be people who agree or disagree, but I believe that this idea merits some serious discussion.

IOR used to provide 1440 Dilithium , once a day for 3 missions.
This made the reward for playing Foundry not at all comparable to other places in the game.
Fleet Marks were added.

In a system that both requires an inordinate amount of Fleet Marks for progression, and where the clickie exploit (which was apparently our fault for not reporting it enough), this became a small daily source of FM for many people.

In order to both fix the clickies, and I believe inject both Dilithium and Fleet Marks into the player base, the IOR was changed to now just 1 mission, with the new addition of qualified 15 minute missions, repeatable every 30 minutes.

This is a grinders dream.
This is absolutely the opposite of what Dan Stahl, Brandon and all the Devs claim the Foundry was created for.


IF rewards are going to stay in the Foundry, I suggest the following.

Investigate Officer Reports should be returned to a daily repeatable, with a reward of 1440 Dilithium, and Fleet Marks.

Spotlight missions should have some sort of reward attached to them beyond the IOR daily. A random item box, which should include up to Level appropriate Very Rare Gear.

This is my attempt to create this discussion with a better approach.


Edit: Much better, thank you I'll be passing this thread along to Stahl directly. Keep it civil, keep it constructive, keep it concise. Your feedback will be heard, whether someone posts that they are opposed or even have their own ideas -- we want to hear it all. -Brandon

Last edited by pwebranflakes; 02-02-2013 at 09:22 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 80
# 2
02-02-2013, 09:25 AM
I have to say I like the idea that the spotlight mission would reward a mystery box or even a "level appropriate item" like you can already get in various places in game

I think I like this approach as opposed to the other thread

Production Assistant & Art Director
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,045
# 3
02-02-2013, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiejon View Post
If you'd like to create another thread that is not going to cause flaming to occur (I mean, look at the title -- what do you expect?) with a better approach, feel free. And before this thread goes down the path I know it's going to go down on, /thread -Brandon

Challenge Accepted

A thread was started regarding the removal of rewards from the Foundry system.
I fully understand that there will be people who agree or disagree, but I believe that this idea merits some serious discussion.

IOR used to provide 1440 Dilithium , once a day for 3 missions.
This made the reward for playing Foundry not at all comparable to other places in the game.
Fleet Marks were added.

In a system that both requires an inordinate amount of Fleet Marks for progression, and where the clickie exploit (which was apparently our fault for not reporting it enough), this became a small daily source of FM for many people.

In order to both fix the clickies, and I believe inject both Dilithium and Fleet Marks into the player base, the IOR was changed to now just 1 mission, with the new addition of qualified 15 minute missions, repeatable every 30 minutes.

This is a grinders dream.
This is absolutely the opposite of what Dan Stahl, Brandon and all the Devs claim the Foundry was created for.


IF rewards are going to stay in the Foundry, I suggest the following.

Investigate Officer Reports should be returned to a daily repeatable, with a reward of 1440 Dilithium, and Fleet Marks.

Spotlight missions should have some sort of reward attached to them beyond the IOR daily. A random item box, which should include up to Level appropriate Very Rare Gear.

This is my attempt to create this discussion with a better approach.


Edit: Change of heart, based on feedback.

Last edited by kirksplat; 02-02-2013 at 04:00 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 40
# 4
02-02-2013, 09:29 AM
No matter how much the system can be abused, playing foundry missions shouldn't be considered to be its own reward. I would never have played a foundry mission if not for the reward wrapper and its dilithium payout.

Never.

And I am not alone.

So what needs to happen is for the rewards to have more to do with the effort required to complete a mission. The problem with console-clickers wasn't that they were too quick (in fact, they were great projects of a type a novice might use to learn the basics of such a system) it was that there were three identical missions that triggered on the same console being clicked and they

And let me emphasize this

gave exactly the same reward as playing three hour-long epics.

Foundry missions should be rewarding, so they should absolutely provide dilithium, energy credits, expertise, and level-appropriate items, and they should be able to be any length at all.

And if I want to play them all day, there shouldn't be a penalty for that.

But the rewards need to be based on length, not tied to a minimum and not the same for a long mission as a short one.

So the solution, it seems to me, would be to discard the wrapper mission concept entirely and give awards per mission (with an appropriate cooldown) based in some way on their content, such as the average length calculation that seems to be currently used to qualify missions.

Oh, for what it's worth, the official storyline missions should probably award something that gives an incentive to play them too.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,413
# 5
02-02-2013, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirksplat View Post
Just reward players with story.
This.
Exactly This.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 283
# 6
02-02-2013, 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiejon View Post
If you'd like to create another thread that is not going to cause flaming to occur (I mean, look at the title -- what do you expect?) with a better approach, feel free. And before this thread goes down the path I know it's going to go down on, /thread -Brandon

Challenge Accepted

A thread was started regarding the removal of rewards from the Foundry system.
I fully understand that there will be people who agree or disagree, but I believe that this idea merits some serious discussion.

IOR used to provide 1440 Dilithium , once a day for 3 missions.
This made the reward for playing Foundry not at all comparable to other places in the game.
Fleet Marks were added.

In a system that both requires an inordinate amount of Fleet Marks for progression, and where the clickie exploit (which was apparently our fault for not reporting it enough), this became a small daily source of FM for many people.

In order to both fix the clickies, and I believe inject both Dilithium and Fleet Marks into the player base, the IOR was changed to now just 1 mission, with the new addition of qualified 15 minute missions, repeatable every 30 minutes.

This is a grinders dream.
This is absolutely the opposite of what Dan Stahl, Brandon and all the Devs claim the Foundry was created for.


IF rewards are going to stay in the Foundry, I suggest the following.

Investigate Officer Reports should be returned to a daily repeatable, with a reward of 1440 Dilithium, and Fleet Marks.

Spotlight missions should have some sort of reward attached to them beyond the IOR daily. A random item box, which should include up to Level appropriate Very Rare Gear.

This is my attempt to create this discussion with a better approach.


Edit: Much better, thank you I'll be passing this thread along to Stahl directly. Keep it civil, keep it constructive, keep it concise. Your feedback will be heard, whether someone posts that they are opposed or even have their own ideas -- we want to hear it all. -Brandon
Let's face it, people don't do the IOR mission to experience great foundry missions. People do it to get dilithium and fleet marks. It's a great option for players who don't have the time to run an STF, FA or some of the other lengthier ways of getting these.

When the clicker missions were removed MANY fleets' progress was brought to a dead stop and some fleets died as a result. Caspian division ended up absorbing 2 smaller fleets who were adversely affected because of the change.

I can get behind the idea hippiejon is proposing as long as the mission qualification is reduced to 10 minutes and the requirement for fleet marks and dilithium is GREATLY reduced all across the game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 902
# 7
02-02-2013, 09:43 AM
I think I could go along with most of this. My whole beef with this process has not been how much stuff I get, but the perceived attitude of some of the foundry authors, whether intended or not, that clickers and those of us who used them were somehow inferior. Almost like we were children who needed the correction of these few foundry authors.

Granted, being that this is a text-only place of discussion, it can be easy to misread someone's intent with what they say since we can't see body expression, facial cues, etc., that are a part of face-to-face communication.

Ok, so with that said, here is my non-inflammatory list of possible solutions:

1.) Improve the UI to allow for sorting of grinder missions and story missions. From what I've read, this seems to be the most popular solution among the non-flamers on both sides of the debate. I understand there may be a lot of behind-the-scenes work by the dev's that may make this impractical, at least for the near future.

2.) Remove all rewards from Foundry missions, at least until a better means of sifting through the missions is found. I consider this to be a fairly draconian solution to the problem, but may lead to less hatred after the initial storm blows over.

3.) Return things to the way they were prior to the previous change and try to make some sort of peace between the sides. This is probably just a pie-in-the-sky dream of a solution.

4.) Nuke the Foundry. Obviously not a solution anyone wants, but if the whole thing is too far gone to salvage, it may be best to just cut our losses, deal with the aftermath and move on.

I realize that both sides are pretty heavily invested in their particular situations so there will be no easy solutions. Honestly, I really do think an improved sorting function in the UI is the way to go. If it can't be implemented immediately, then it should be put on the list for Season 8 (or whatever it's going to be called) or Season 9 at the latest.

This is Walter Cronkite, signing off...

Porthos is not amused.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 155
# 8
02-02-2013, 09:51 AM
If the reward is based on how long you were in a mission, then people will start a mission, leave it on forever, wiggle the mouse so they aren't afk, then reap who knows what for a reward.

Let's look at the issues:

Exploits -
I'll leave economy for the devs to figure out. If not working as intended, fix it. Just try not to break something else in the process, please {:0) (but the current 'passive until shot' will allow me to do something I wanted with less work, so that's good, but we still need true passive). but, Exploits need to be fixed because they are exploits. That's pretty simple.

Clutter of all kinds of missions, making it hard to find story versus grinder, combat only, etc. -
Add a selection box to foundry. Story Focused (words and combat) - Non-Combat - All combat - Test mission. Make it limited, but encompassing. Then when someone searches, they can select All Combat and get what they want. There would be no real incentive (aside from being a jackArmus) to incorrectly tag your mission.
Authors can also #hastag their missions with things like #puzzles #story #diplomatic or whatnot which can be searched for. This can be abused, but it can be done now and with no change to current systems (far as I know)


Rewards -
My opinion is leave them in. If I do a mission for Sulu and do a lot of talking and get my diplomatic on, I get in-game rewards. I should also get rewards for doing the same in Foundry, or for blowing crap up, or for solving puzzles. I'm in the game, the game gives rewards, why make Foundry different? If they play a legitimate combat mission (exploit free) then why not get fleet marks like they would for shooting ship at their starbase? I'd not like it if I played featured episodes, as good as they are, but all I got was story. It's the same thing.

The word jackArmus is my new favorite thing to say.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,749
# 9
02-02-2013, 09:55 AM
I do not agree or believe that rewards should be taken away. I dont think there is anything wrong with rewarding people who play a 45 minute story mission compared to people who play a fleet action or event or whatever. i dont think there is a need to be heavy handed here, just a bit more thought in how its set up.

create a system where an author has to select his mission as a story mission or a combat patrol mission on creation (get everyone to manually republish their mission at the next big update. this will also filter out some of the old dead missions). these then slide into one of two tabs. everyone who wants to find quick, short grind missions can do so. everyone who wants story missions can do so as well. this stops people treading on each others toes as the first step.

make a difference between the two tabs. give the grind mission fleet marks and dilithium if you are not worried about how quickly people earn them and let them go about their business and grind as much as they like. its no skin of anybody's noes.

make the story tab rewards more attractive which is offset by the longer missions. perhaps add a goody bag that gives a random items, doff pack, boost, lock box key etc. players who then play these get a good story (hopefully) and a more juicy reward for their effort.

It lets people know where their favourite type of mission is located, its neater, and lets everyone do their own thing. grinds can play a couple of quick grind missions back to back, someone else can play one story mission and get an equivalent or better reward plus a good story.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,413
# 10
02-02-2013, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by collegepark2151 View Post
<- Snip ->
First off, thank you for contributing to the discussion in a constructive way


Ok, so with that said, here is my non-inflammatory list of possible solutions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by collegepark2151 View Post
1.) Improve the UI to allow for sorting of grinder missions and story missions. From what I've read, this seems to be the most popular solution among the non-flamers on both sides of the debate. I understand there may be a lot of behind-the-scenes work by the dev's that may make this impractical, at least for the near future.
This indeed seems that it would be the single best solution of all the solutions that have been discussed. It would require a great deal of work, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by collegepark2151 View Post
2.) Remove all rewards from Foundry missions, at least until a better means of sifting through the missions is found. I consider this to be a fairly draconian solution to the problem, but may lead to less hatred after the initial storm blows over.
There is serious wisdom in this as a short term solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by collegepark2151 View Post
3.) Return things to the way they were prior to the previous change and try to make some sort of peace between the sides. This is probably just a pie-in-the-sky dream of a solution.
Not looking for a return to the way things were, because thus far, we have seen nothing that actually works come from the team at Cryptic. A new solution needs to be found, and a "peace" between all the people who are obviously very passionate about this would be the best way to make that happen.

Look, I am the first to admit that both sides of this argument went over the top.
Fine.
That's done.
Let's be over that.

As many people as have gotten themselves involved in this fiasco, with as much passion as we all have about it, putting our thinking together on a solution that works for everyone ... imagine what that could accomplish.

Yes, compromises would have to be made on all sides of the issue.
But lets answer some really basic questions here.

What do you want to get out of the Foundry ?
How can the Foundry community help support what it is the player base is looking for?
How can the community help support Foundry authors?

etc etc

A concise and honest discussion could work wonders.
Since I now Brandon is reading this thread.

Flakes, how about an In Game Open House roundtable about these things ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by collegepark2151 View Post
4.) Nuke the Foundry. Obviously not a solution anyone wants, but if the whole thing is too far gone to salvage, it may be best to just cut our losses, deal with the aftermath and move on.
I don't think we have reached that point yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by collegepark2151 View Post
I realize that both sides are pretty heavily invested in their particular situations so there will be no easy solutions. Honestly, I really do think an improved sorting function in the UI is the way to go. If it can't be implemented immediately, then it should be put on the list for Season 8 (or whatever it's going to be called) or Season 9 at the latest.

This is Walter Cronkite, signing off...
All I am saying , is ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkZC7sqImaM
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