Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 1 major issue
02-07-2013, 04:03 AM
too many powers are cleared by too few powers.

what can be done to help this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,775
# 2
02-07-2013, 05:03 AM
Idea#1

Make the level/rank count.

Cleanse1 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse.
Cleanse1 vs. Stuff2 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.
Cleanse1 vs. Stuff3 - reduce effect/duration by 25%.

Cleanse2 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse + temporary resistance.
Cleanse2 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse.
Cleanse2 vs. Stuff3 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.

Cleanse3 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse + longer temporary resistance.
Cleanse3 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse + temporary resistance.
Cleanse3 vs. Stuff3 - cleanse.

Certain Stuff won't have a level, so treat it as Stuff2.

Cleanse1 vs. Stuff2 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.
Cleanse2 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse.
Cleanse3 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse + temporary resistance.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 02-07-2013 at 05:22 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,176
# 3
02-07-2013, 05:04 AM
I've always liked that idea - so TT1 only clears APB1, but not APB2, for example.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,732
# 4
02-07-2013, 05:12 AM
I was reading the chat that brought about the OPs idea.

I like some of virusdancer's idea in principle, but to keep it simple, why not just make it so that HE gives you a resist to ES instead of removing the debuff outright?

I don't like the idea of tiered effectiveness of clears.


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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 5
02-07-2013, 05:25 AM
The problem with tiered cleanses is that it turns the game into a bit of a lottery as to which powers you have on hand (this is already sort of an issue, albeit one solved with multiple BOffs) so some sort of balance has to be struck between making all powers useful and keeping it possible to actually prepare yourself for what you'll reasonably face. I quite like the idea of graded effectiveness, though.

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,775
# 6
02-07-2013, 05:45 AM
Idea#2

Make Teams "use" Crew. "Use" is temporary. The Crew are removed from the Able Crew for a period of time - a period longer than the recharge of the Team. When that period of time is done, return those Crew to the Able Crew. While on the Team, these Crew will have the Captain and BOFF invulnerability. They can't die while on the Team.

Team1 uses X Able Crew.
Team2 uses X+ Able Crew.
Team3 uses X++ Able Crew.

If you do not have enough Able Crew, you cannot use the Team.

Yes, this would require something being done about Theta.

Idea#3

Acknowledging there are other cleanses, this is still about Teams. Raise the min Rank of the BOFF to use a Team to Lieutenant. Team1 = LT, Team2 = LCdr, Team3 = Cmdr.

In doing this, though, provide the three class of ships with a set of innate Team abilities that work in a similar function to a Sci Vessel's Subsystem Targeting.

Escorts:
miniTTA - remove hostile boarding parties
miniTTB - remove tactical debuffs
miniTTC - buff energy/projectile weapon training
miniTTD - distribute shield strength

Cruisers:
miniETA - hull heal
miniETB - repair disabled systems
miniETC - remove engineering debuffs
miniETD - buff hull resist

Science Vessels:
miniSTA - shield regen
miniSTB - remove science debuffs
miniSTC - buff shield damage reduction
miniSTD - buff stealthsight

Used in conjunction with Idea#1, this would increase the overall opportunity cost of using certain cleanses but still provide some sort of benefit based on ship for those that can't meet that cost.

It also addresses the (complete, imho) silliness of how teams work now.

Somebody can go through and spend skill points in a higher tier skill and take a R3 version of an ability...to have it cleansed by somebody that didn't spend a single skill point and took a R1 version of the cleanse at Ensign.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 7
02-07-2013, 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Idea#1

Make the level/rank count.

Cleanse1 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse.
Cleanse1 vs. Stuff2 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.
Cleanse1 vs. Stuff3 - reduce effect/duration by 25%.
This would appear to have the opposite effect - making it even harder to clear stuff.

I suugest:

- make buffs and debuffs shorter, reducing the need to clear.
- team skills should not share a cooldown.
- debuff skills should do ONE thing, not multiple. (e.g. SNB removes buffs OR increases cooldowns.)
- set limits on all debuffs and buffs. (e.g. cap everything at some percentage, etc.)
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,775
# 8
02-07-2013, 06:13 AM
Is that enough for the too much cleanse side of the argument? I was wearing my I hate TT/HE hat.

The TT spam cleanse of APB and the spammable HE destroying the DPS of an insane plasma build...well, those kind of tick me off. Can have a blast in PvE, but that fix doesn't cut it in the long run. With a mix of Hyper, Omega, Plasma Torps, Plasma Mines, EWP, Plasma Energy Weapons, and using the various Tac abilities for them - it's insane how many different types of Plasma DoTs you can stack and how high some of those stacks will go. All of it...poof...gone with a HE1.

Because I've also got the hat where I hate everything that can be "spammed" from the other side of the discussion as well.

One can look at Weapons and look at Stuff, to see where they've tried to do something similar with the mechanics. Heals/Resists-Reduced Effect.

There's a component that's missing though. Accuracy/Defense. Wait? How could that work? Well, a lot of the Stuff is modified by a certain skill. What the Stuff is "attacking" often has skills involved as well. So compare skills and do a hit roll. For example: CMS vs. Sensors to determine a "hit"... and like Acc/Def, if there's overflow - then why not allow for a "Critical Hit" where the Stuff does "more"...?

But still, in speaking about things and Stuff - there's SNB. C'mon, this doesn't make sense at all in so many ways, eh? It even clears buffs that it makes no sense that SNB should clear, above and beyond stripping all buffs.

How about this instead...SNB makes an unmodified to-hit roll and removes a random number of logical buffs depending on that hit? Something like this:

Critical Hit - Remove Rnd(X+) Logical Buffs
Hit - Remove Rnd(X) Logical Buffs
Miss - Nada
Critical Miss - Increases recharge duration on SNB

Much like I run toons on both the Fed and KDF side, much like I fly Cruisers and Escorts, much like blah, blah, blah... I can see both sides of the issue with Cleanses and Stuffs. Think both sides need work and balancing...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,775
# 9
02-07-2013, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naevius View Post
This would appear to have the opposite effect - making it even harder to clear stuff.
Yes, the Cleanse1 guy's going to have a rougher time of it. The Cleanse3 guy's going to have a better time of it though.

As it stands, somebody without any skill points spent - no consoles slotted - etc, etc, etc - can use a Cleanse1 to wipe a Stuff3 where the guy using Stuff3 did spend skill points, did slot consoles, etc, etc, etc.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 10
02-07-2013, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naevius View Post
- set limits on all debuffs and buffs. (e.g. cap everything at some percentage, etc.)
Not to veer off topic too hard, but this is a really astute observation and something that Cryptic's never really done any serious work on. There are a lot of stats and mechanics in this game which can be indefinitely stacked because there aren't really any soft caps or safeguards in place against extreme scenarios.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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