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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,944
Even on the show, it seemed we got two very different answers on the reversability of the personality destruction caused by Borg assimilation.

On one hand, you had people like Picard, Janeway, and Tuvok who, while psychologically very affected by what happened to them, were still essentially the same people. I mean, Picard understandably had PTSD as a result of his time as Locutus but he was still a human with a human's problems.

On the other, you have Seven of Nine and the show's claim that she even has a device that suppresses emotional affect...a claim which doesn't even square with prior canon involving a liberated Borg drone who presumably had no memories of any other life. Looking at how Hugh essentially had an adolescent outburst at Worf and Riker (and he was indeed an adolescent, so it's not a slam on him) when he encountered them in "Descent," you can't tell me he isn't a highly emotional being, Borg or not.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Seven of Nine's characterization (and then Icheb's and most of the other liberated Borg in Voyager) violated canon and the writers later tried to cover for their obvious continuity breach by inventing an implant that had clearly not existed in any other drone's case.

But how do you handle it with the characterization of your Borg BOFFs and your Liberated Borg captains? Do they always have the non-personality of Seven of Nine, or do they act more like humans or whatever species they originally were prior to assimilation? (Or if born into the Collective, do they act more like Hugh than Seven?)

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Captain
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 548
# 2
02-16-2013, 07:46 PM
Well, let's look at the differences here.

Hugh and Seven were practically raised in the Collective and it was all they knew. No idea when Hugh was first assimilated but Seven was still like age 5-7 range and probably repressed the knowledge of her assimilation unconciously (effects of this seen in one of the Season 4 or 5 episodes of Voyager if I remember right).

As for Janeway, Picard, and Tuvok...they weren't in very long so were able to recovery quickly and were full adults when they were assimilated.

As for my own Borg BOff...I imagine her as a Liberated Borg with more curiousity about the world around her and as a Seven fangirl.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,379
# 3
02-16-2013, 08:09 PM
Considering that my main captain is a liberated borg that has known no other life than being a borg, having more borg makes it more comfortable for her. There is an immense amount of knowledge and technology that the Collective has as shown by Seven of Nine so any borg that is willing to become a productive member of society is welcome on board. Unfortunately, most borg don't want to leave or don't have the willpower to strive for something more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
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# 4
02-16-2013, 08:32 PM
Ok, first you must compare a couple things.

First off, Janeway, Picard, and Tuvok were only assimilated for a brief period of time. Seven and Hugh were raised in the collective. So I'd guesstimate that they spent 15+ years in the collective. It's all they would've known.

And you have to take into account that Hugh and Seven never really had a chance to mature emotionally or experience many/any emotions. Janeway, Picard, and Tuvok did.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 5
02-16-2013, 08:36 PM
The thing is, Hugh did experience a lot of emotions in comparison to Seven, and there's no evidence of any prior memories in him. If anything, Hugh's flaw in dealing with his emotions was to let them get the best of him until talked down from his anger and fear.

Yet Seven, who should've had more of a past to draw on, was emotionally dead and we're then told that there's some sort of emotion-suppressing implant, which if true would've kept Hugh from flying off the handle in "Descent" like he did. That's the canon contradiction.

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# 6
02-16-2013, 09:38 PM
Ordinary people access and respond to their emotions very differently. It makes some sense that Seven and Hugh would exhibit wildly different reactions to being assimilated and liberated, just like two people can have wildly different reactions to watching JJ's Star Trek.

Besides, I can recall a few incidents where Seven's emotions took over...


As for my Borg, most of them are like Hugh. They've been in the collective so long its all they know - now that they're liberated they are confused and a little scared, but curious and eager to please. They have also established friendships with their shipmates. Emotionally they are underdeveloped, and they often consider the safety of their friends before the rest of the ship.

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 139
# 7
02-16-2013, 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulberat View Post
The thing is, Hugh did experience a lot of emotions in comparison to Seven, and there's no evidence of any prior memories in him. If anything, Hugh's flaw in dealing with his emotions was to let them get the best of him until talked down from his anger and fear.

Yet Seven, who should've had more of a past to draw on, was emotionally dead and we're then told that there's some sort of emotion-suppressing implant, which if true would've kept Hugh from flying off the handle in "Descent" like he did. That's the canon contradiction.

Agreed, it could be read as something canon-breaking, but there's some details that need to be considered. Hugh was found in...2368 if memory serves. Hugh was also returned to the collective in the same year, with his emotions and individuality intact, which was directly responsible for the Collective losing an entire Cube. Seven was not liberated until 2374, 6 years after the events involving Hugh. I would say it is probably safe to assume that subsequent to the events involving Hugh's Cube, the Collective took steps to ensure that a similar occurrence would not happen, resulting in the implantation of emotion suppression units.

Also, while Hugh was a Drone within the Collective, Seven was slightly higher in the pecking order, it is not inconceivable that higher "ranking" members of the Collective were put together differently, especially those more closely associated with the Borg Queen.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,104
# 8
02-17-2013, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trycksh0t View Post
Agreed, it could be read as something canon-breaking, but there's some details that need to be considered. Hugh was found in...2368 if memory serves. Hugh was also returned to the collective in the same year, with his emotions and individuality intact, which was directly responsible for the Collective losing an entire Cube. Seven was not liberated until 2374, 6 years after the events involving Hugh. I would say it is probably safe to assume that subsequent to the events involving Hugh's Cube, the Collective took steps to ensure that a similar occurrence would not happen, resulting in the implantation of emotion suppression units.

Also, while Hugh was a Drone within the Collective, Seven was slightly higher in the pecking order, it is not inconceivable that higher "ranking" members of the Collective were put together differently, especially those more closely associated with the Borg Queen.
Remember though, the Borg Queen herself violated canon. Originally the Borg were a pure hive mind, the ships, drones, and everything were completely decentralized. Thusly they had no "pecking order". The Borg Queen changed all that of course.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 9
02-17-2013, 12:13 AM
That's possible...though for me it still doesn't sit right, given that the emotion-restraint device was slapped onto the VOY continuity very late, to explain what in fact was nothing more than a continuity screwup by the writers. :-/


Anyway...the Liberated Borg on my ship's crew is actually one of the junior Enterprise crew who was assimilated during First Contact. She wasn't in the Collective for more than a few days, so her human personality is intact. However, she was also one of the first ones the Collective began testing its more invasive surgical techniques on (the forerunner of what you see on the STO-style drones), which meant that not only did her implants not reject, but she would have died from any attempt to restore her to human biology.

So this creates a very different set of difficulties for her, compared to the "stereotypical" Liberated Borg: people expect a robot personality but she is in fact a mature human, psychologically. People often don't treat her that way, though, so she's quite shy except with a crew that knows her well, and knows what to expect.

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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
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# 10
02-17-2013, 02:02 AM
Don't forget, the young Borg Voyager found had members prone to emotional outbursts as well. It is not at all unreasonable to believe that this is a process which takes a significant amount of time. Like a Vulcan preparing to undergo Kolinahr.
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