Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 1 OMG nerf tacs
02-06-2013, 05:35 PM
Do I have your attention? Good. I will do my best to be polite, helpful, respectful, and to the point. I ask you do the same. Here are the sum total of the patch notes at your please. Please, site a clear reference if I am wrong.

I have tried the diplomatic approach. I have tried the disarming approach. Frankly I'm far too (justifiably) annoyed to keep that up. I will not try the direct approach.

This thread is about nerfing tactical captains. I will not bog you down with the small things. There are far older and more little picture players out there who can do that better, and I invite them to do so. Instead I'm going to show you proof of a trend that has steadily been weakening non-tactical roles, and strengthening tactical roles.

The first: Every feedback I've seen that I can recall about nerfing a engineering or science ability hasn't been how it has been unbeatable. It's been about how it breaks the simple pattern of pointing at something and killing it. Instead of first asking for help, seeking a alternate solution, or even bothering to look at it from the other side? The first thing is to cry how <x> ability is clearly over powered and needs to be nerfed.

As the older players can tell you, that trend has not been kind to them.

If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.

Edit: I forgot one other detail. The Atrox was on the receiving end of a few nerfs for doing exactly what the dreadnaught does now.

The second: Everything increase the DPS in some way shape or form of cruisers it brought up, so too is the point "space whales" don't need it because they have the "huge" tanking ability. Even if that was a argument that had a merit it's moot now.

Whatever they started out with, the tactical side of thing has been steadily increase their hull and shield abilities. With no corresponding decrease in damage abilities. Case and point, in case you haven't been playing sense the start of the game:

Atrox vs. Jem'Hdar Dreadnought

Not only does the dreadnought have a share of science abilities, The only stat a the dreadnought doesn't directly beat out is the 5% shield difference. Before you tell me how that makes up the difference in 5K, please do the math of how much resistance or base points would be needed to cover that. Before you tell me "Yea, but the Atrox has shiny abilties to do that ...", that is the science ship's domain. I'm going to ask you what a escort is doing there.

If that wasn't enough, salting the wound is tactical pilots turning their nose at it for not being as good as their old ship.

If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.

The third: Here is one I'm bet most tactical captains didn't even notice. Go down fighting. Even notice how many have volunteered it as more then required?

Where in that long list of patch notes has it been nerfed to offset the ever increase hull values? It has gone from a last gasp panic button, to doing +50-100% damage with more hull left then the ships it was originally used on had at 90% hull!

If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.

The fourth: Anytime issues DPS are brought up, again the argument of needing that 30-45K base hull. Yes, escorts have such maneuverability they don't actually have to face 50% or more of the same firepower. Before bridge officer or captain abilities. The ability to flank is regularly used in PvP, but conveniently ignored in all arguments. Thus the power creeps ever higher.

A pilot's inability to notice it or even use it doesn't negate it's there, but again, calls for increased DPS by engineers and science captain fly cruisers or carriers are called unfair.

If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 02-06-2013 at 05:43 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 2
02-06-2013, 05:53 PM
Rather than nerf Tac, we should buff Eng and Sci.

I think a major overhaul of Sci abilities is needed. Nearly every ability we have needs to be buffed. Also attack patterns should only buff weapon damage, not Sci or Eng abilities.

I don't understand why DPS-increasing skills like Starship Weapons Training and Starship Energy Weapons are tier 1 and 2 skills, but Tanking skills like Threat Control and Armor Reinforcements are tier 4 and 5 skills. Yet the inverse is true for Science - Subsystem Repair is a tier 2 skill, Subspace Decompiler is a tier 5 skill.

These abilities should be moved around. For instance Power Insulators should be moved up to tier 4, Subspace Decompiler should be moved to tier 3 or 4. Subsystem Repair should be moved to tier 5. Why? That just feels better to me. If you want to resist Science abilities you should have to pay for the skill ranks.

We need a science console for Subspace Decompiler. At present one doesn't exist.

I don't play an Engineering Captain so I couldn't tell you what they would need.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,939
# 3
02-06-2013, 06:03 PM
Good luck, it is true that the combination of DHCs, tac boffs, and tac captains has become so extremely overpowered it is laughable anyone would argue with it, yet they will.

The main cause is simple, most of the players of these game are of low skill and have very little game system knowledge. Combine that with using the same mechanics in PvE and PvP gives you this result.

I'm of very low skill level. It makes me cry inside everytime I carry ESTF groups simply because I know how to build a ship and mash my spacebar keybind with everything tied to it. Ok my defensive abilities are attached to Shift+spacebar and I have to change throttle settings to yo-yo but still.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,686
# 4
02-06-2013, 06:24 PM
even though i myself am a Tac captain with a handful of escort class starships...i DO enjoy using my Atrox and my 2 cruisers....i would LOVE to see the eng/sci abilites buffed to get closer to the tac abilites...one of the things i DONT get is how the Tactical ability Tactical Fleet is 15 min CD....yet the Sci's Photonic fleet is only 4 min CD....

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I find this line of replies sadly hilarious. We put a lot of work into the massive list of fixes/changes above, and ya'll are hung up on the ability to skip our content. =p

Last edited by cynder2012; 02-06-2013 at 06:29 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 121
# 5
02-06-2013, 06:29 PM
Yeah, tactical captains just do too much damage in PVP (intended?), and this is coming from someone who has a Klingon tactical officer. As far as what to do to balance it, I have no idea.

Last edited by chk231; 02-06-2013 at 06:33 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 119
# 6
02-06-2013, 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynder2012 View Post
even though i myself am a Tac captain with a handful of escort class starships...i DO enjoy using my Atrox and my 2 cruisers....i would LOVE to see the eng/sci abilites buffed to get closer to the tac abilites...one of the things i DONT get is how the Tactical ability Tactical Fleet is 15 min CD....yet the Sci's Photonic fleet is only 4 min CD....
Tactical Fleet should be compared to Science Fleet as they're both the final Captain ability you receive, Photonic Fleet is (IIRC) the equivalent to Go Down Fighting and Mircale Worker, I don't think many will argue that PF is superior to GDF, especially combined with the other tactical captain abilities and/ or low hull.
Or do you mean Fleet Support (TF gives no NPC assistance), in which case Science and Engineer characters get the exact same ability with the exact same cool down.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,753
# 7
02-06-2013, 07:00 PM
Then those whom play tac will play whatever the newest topdog class and vessel combo becomes. Those same players will learn, adapt and continue to play above the majority of the playerbase. Cries of unbalance, unfair and omG-nerf **** will come from the disappointed playerbase whom still has not adapted to the change of the last "OmG" bitchfest and the cycle will repeat.
Only the names of the classes,vessels or powers will change, the crying will still be the same when it comes down to it because while all that pissing and moaning may bring change, its nothing without balance.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 8
02-06-2013, 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Then those whom play tac will play whatever the newest topdog class and vessel combo becomes. Those same players will learn, adapt and continue to play above the majority of the playerbase. Cries of unbalance, unfair and omG-nerf **** will come from the disappointed playerbase whom still has not adapted to the change of the last "OmG" bitchfest and the cycle will repeat.
Only the names of the classes,vessels or powers will change, the crying will still be the same when it comes down to it because while all that pissing and moaning may bring change, its nothing without balance.
This is true. Though I will always play Sci out of personal preference, I would like a balance to be struck between all 3 classes. It's true Tac's are the most effective, but we shouldn't call for the Nerf Bat. Key buffs to the other 2 classes, some skill changes, and we should be all set.

The only thing that I feel should be changed Tac side, is attack patterns buffing damage to science and engineering abilities. Attack patterns should really only buff weapons. If they did this, they could start buffing Sci abilities without people seeing attack pattern alpha gravity wells that hit for 1k+ damage per tick.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,060
# 9
02-06-2013, 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
Rather than nerf Tac, we should buff Eng and Sci.

I think a major overhaul of Sci abilities is needed. Nearly every ability we have needs to be buffed. Also attack patterns should only buff weapon damage, not Sci or Eng abilities.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,246
# 10
02-06-2013, 09:44 PM
Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree. On my Fleet advance escort I have the following.

[Console - Tactical - Plasma Infuser Mk XII]x5 @ 30% plasma
[Console - Science - Emitter Array Mk XI [-Th] [Pla]]x2 @ 9% plamsa
[Console - Zero-Point Energy Conduit] & [Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher] @ 7% plamsa passive
[Adapted M.A.C.O. Covariant Shield Array Mk XII] & [Adapted M.A.C.O. Combat Impulse Engines Mk XII] @ 25% kinetic passive

This gives me effectively 175% plasma damage and 25% Torp/mine damage. Normally That would be 7 tac console equivalency in damage.

I can't think of too many sci or eng abilities that can get that high and while yes this is only for plasma weapons for the most part it still blends very well.

I also picked up a few Romulan Boffs, That and with a couple of other console I am now doing 15% crit chance and 66.8% severity. That also meshed well.

When I look at the new fleet gear and consoles they really boost damage which is a tacs dream.

When I look at the other embassy console that boost shield and Hull it looks like it is on a 2.5% chance where the plasma infused is constant plasma damage.

Why were there no [Console - Tactical - Plasma Infuser Mk XI [+Th] [Sif]] or even a [Console - Engineering - Electroceramic Hull Plating Mk XI [-Th] [Em]] maybe a [Console - Engineering - Neutronium Alloy Mk XI [-th] [Gra]]? If this were to happen then they other 2 careers can stack bonuses like the tacs.

I know that deflectors are glorified science console but why not remake a previous set like the Breen set to have a passive set bonus to boost sci and engineering abilities further instead of transphasic damage (hmm. more damage, some theme). Even remake these set to be onpar with the maco sets. have you compared the [M.A.C.O. Resilient Shield Array Mk XII] and the [Dielectric Oscillation Resilient Shields Mk XI].

I know as a tac I do not want to give up the perks I just got but as you add more reputation systems and fleet holds you have an opportunity to focus on the other classes. I've heard that there might be a Deferi Rep system in the future to join in the ranks of the romulan and omega rep systems. There is a perfect place to revamp one of these sets like the Breen set which is already science oriented with the breen energy siphon for a set bonus to have instead of an ability with a 2 minute cool down to be another passive to boost science or engineering.

Last edited by robdmc; 02-06-2013 at 09:47 PM.
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