Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 95
# 11
02-06-2013, 09:45 PM
Roles are nothing new to warfare, each piece of gear, skill or training has specific purposes. You DON'T want everything to be the same, if it was you'd loose the specific advantages each one gives. The same is true for this game.

The fact is many people completely ignore the role each capt type plays. TACs are about DPS, SCI is crowd control, placate and healing, ENGY is threat control. If you're a SCI flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. If you're an ENGY flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. Engineers are there to take a higher portion of incoming damage and keep the heat of everyone else. If he kills something in the process, even better. Science is also about controlling incoming damage, and healing team mates in the process. If he kills something in the process, even better. There are exceptions to these general outlines, but they're true 90% of the time.

So do TACs need to be nerfed? No way. If the TACs on your team die, enemies survive longer and inflict more damage. Does that sound like a good idea? What this means is you need to play as a unit and work together. It's one of the things that make this game great.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,849
# 12
02-06-2013, 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajathomas View Post
Roles are nothing new to warfare, each piece of gear, skill or training has specific purposes. You DON'T want everything to be the same, if it was you'd loose the specific advantages each one gives. The same is true for this game.

The fact is many people completely ignore the role each capt type plays. TACs are about DPS, SCI is crowd control, placate and healing, ENGY is threat control. If you're a SCI flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. If you're an ENGY flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. Engineers are there to take a higher portion of incoming damage and keep the heat of everyone else. If he kills something in the process, even better. Science is also about controlling incoming damage, and healing team mates in the process. If he kills something in the process, even better. There are exceptions to these general outlines, but they're true 90% of the time.

So do TACs need to be nerfed? No way. If the TACs on your team die, enemies survive longer and inflict more damage. Does that sound like a good idea? What this means is you need to play as a unit and work together. It's one of the things that make this game great.
This would be an argument if the scoring in the game also considered healing output and enemy neutralization. As it is if i can destroy my target in seconds I dont really need healing or cc, and in the few missions where those things come in habdy you arent scored for doing it.

I could go into a sb24 run and i gould grav well and tractor beam and toss sensor scan around, then i could toss he and tss at people maybe even afew teams, and you know what I would get for it? Nothing.

I could the go into the same sb24 with a defiant and just blast away at everything and ignore my other teammates, and you know what i would get for that? 1st place.

In stf's you barely have a need for healing or cc since I have see 2 (just 2) tac ships clear KASE with the optional. Hell people whine when they see more than 1 cruiser or science ship show up in their stf's.

DPS is king untill the roles are tailored to that fact 2 are always going to be somewhat lacking.

If you look toward somthing like battlefield you can clearly see there are roles and they have their uses, but they arent limited to only certain weapons or tactics. I can be a medic and carry my heavy MG, or I can be an assault class and bring a sniper rifle, and still perform my special role without rendering myself ineffective.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 165
# 13
02-06-2013, 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajathomas View Post
Roles are nothing new to warfare, each piece of gear, skill or training has specific purposes. You DON'T want everything to be the same, if it was you'd loose the specific advantages each one gives. The same is true for this game.

The fact is many people completely ignore the role each capt type plays. TACs are about DPS, SCI is crowd control, placate and healing, ENGY is threat control. If you're a SCI flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. If you're an ENGY flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. Engineers are there to take a higher portion of incoming damage and keep the heat of everyone else. If he kills something in the process, even better. Science is also about controlling incoming damage, and healing team mates in the process. If he kills something in the process, even better. There are exceptions to these general outlines, but they're true 90% of the time.

So do TACs need to be nerfed? No way. If the TACs on your team die, enemies survive longer and inflict more damage. Does that sound like a good idea? What this means is you need to play as a unit and work together. It's one of the things that make this game great.
Engy are not threat controled, that was a feature added in f2p conversion. Im an engineer, and i refuse to go down that route due to simple minded people who only understand trinity style games of healer/dps/tank.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 149
# 14
02-06-2013, 11:22 PM
Cryptic has never really nerfed Tacs, so I doubt they will begin. But I bet they will nerf Sci and Eng again and call it Tactical online.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 460
# 15
02-06-2013, 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynder2012 View Post
even though i myself am a Tac captain with a handful of escort class starships...i DO enjoy using my Atrox and my 2 cruisers....i would LOVE to see the eng/sci abilites buffed to get closer to the tac abilites...one of the things i DONT get is how the Tactical ability Tactical Fleet is 15 min CD....yet the Sci's Photonic fleet is only 4 min CD....
I think you're thinking Fleet Support, which all three classes get. That one is 15 minutes. Tactucal Fleet, Science Fleet and Engineering Fleet all have a five minute cooldown.

Photonic fleet? Why bother using it, the ships spawned by it die instantly an overwhelming majority of the time. And they barely do any damage at all if they do manage to survive their full lifespans.
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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,690
# 16
02-06-2013, 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwgacy1 View Post
Tactical Fleet should be compared to Science Fleet as they're both the final Captain ability you receive, Photonic Fleet is (IIRC) the equivalent to Go Down Fighting and Mircale Worker, I don't think many will argue that PF is superior to GDF, especially combined with the other tactical captain abilities and/ or low hull.
Or do you mean Fleet Support (TF gives no NPC assistance), in which case Science and Engineer characters get the exact same ability with the exact same cool down.
Yeah...sorry about that...I meant the Fleet Support ones hehe...ok i see what you meant...but i still think the 15 CD is ridiculous for such a ability that doesn't seem to work right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I find this line of replies sadly hilarious. We put a lot of work into the massive list of fixes/changes above, and ya'll are hung up on the ability to skip our content. =p
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,142
# 17
02-07-2013, 12:44 AM
Make PvP simple, i.e, tier 1 ships only with either 1 tactical, 1 sci or 1 tac boff with ensign slot.

Problem solved

But in all seriousness, sci career is very demanding. You can do very well as tac without spending skills in sci tree but you need skills in tac tree if you are playing sci.
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Last edited by notapwefan; 02-07-2013 at 12:47 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,482
# 18
02-07-2013, 04:57 AM
Another person who doesn't know how to play calling for a nerf on something he knows nothing about.
Tac has some bugs, most of it doing with it buffing science type damages, eng is under performing though it has a limited purpose, science is not focused but does have some pretty awesome abilities.
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Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 278
# 19
02-07-2013, 06:47 AM
The fact is that we need the lineup to actually reflect how the different types should play:
  • Escorts should only be able to deliver the highest DPS in bursts either with a ton of cannons or as a torpedo boat. They shouldn't be able to stand up to return damage for long before they're forced to turn to take the strain off weakened shields. Right now escorts have far too many hit-points for ships of supposedly lower mass, and more than enough access to shield strengthening abilities that keep their hull out of the equation most of the time anyway.
  • Cruisers should be the constant DPS dealers; not tons of damage, but it should come constantly without pause, while they soak up damage, removing the need to turn unless under concentrated fire. Currently the extra hit-points on cruisers are tiny compared to many escorts, and they just aren't resilient enough to distinguish them. Add to this the fact that their damage potential is simply lower than escorts and it leaves them somewhat in the lurch.
  • Science ships have their subsystem targeting and shields which is nice, it's not a class of ships I've played as but the current DPS focus leaves them out as while they can buff and debug to a decent degree, escorts aren't exactly lacking in abilities to clear debuffs from themselves if they need to.

My proposals to fix each ship type would be (and some of these ideas are borrowed/modified from other threads):
  • Reduce the effectiveness of the Tactical Team ability. Currently it's better at protecting your ship than Emergency Power to Shields, plus it clears boarders, tactical debuffs and gives a damage boost that escorts do not need. This ability should actively leach hit-points from other shield facings, giving escorts a bit more time on target but leaving them vulnerable if surrounded.
  • Change dual cannons to have the same damage and arc as dual beam banks, or put them somewhere in between dual heavy cannons and a dual beam bank. With a wider arc there would be a reason to take them, unlike now.
  • Add diminishing returns to damage boosting consoles so that three is the sweet-spot, and four isn't a no-brainer. This will allow engineering and science ships to compete (but not excel), while encouraging the use of hybrid builds on tactical ships such as two energy types or energy + kinetic damage. The diminishing returns would apply by type of damage boosted, so all-energy or all-kinetic consoles have an advantage that justifies taking them; while this would mean a Fleet Advanced Escort could still slot two all-energy plus three specific energy consoles for maximum damage, it wouldn't be as powerful and wouldn't stack nearly as far with abilities and other modifiers factored in.
  • Increase cruiser hit-points and fix how crew numbers affect hull and subsystem repair. Currently large crews count for very little, which devalues cruisers and carriers, and makes crew consoles and abilities largely worthless. They need to have more innate effect, and give a bigger boost to engineering abilities.
  • Give cruisers and science ships (or really just anything that can't take cannons) an innate staggered fire ability when firing multiple beam weapons. This would ensure beam weapons fire in a staggered pattern, and reduce total energy drain when firing continuously. My thinking is that it would reduce beam weapon power drain by 25%, but all weapons would affect power setting (no "free" first shot). So a full broadside of eight beams would require 60 weapon power instead of 70.
  • Give science ships an innate bonus to the arc of all science abilities representing specialised deflector arrays, sensor banks etc. Maybe even allow science ships to have an increase Auxiliary Power cap of 150, increasing the effects of all Auxiliary Power based abilities.
  • Add a class of Capital Ship weapon for large ships. First would be Quad Heavy Beam Banks which have double the damage of Dual Beam Banks but only in a 45 degree forward arc. They would have suffer significant accuracy penalties against non-Capital ships. Also available would be Broadside Heavy Beam Arrays which have a 90 degree arc to either side (i.e - broadside only) and deal double damage compared to a regular beam array, but likewise suffering accuracy penalties against smaller ships. The limited arcs and accuracy penalties mean they would roughly perform about as well as a dual beam bank or beam array against escorts and other "standard" ships, and perform very poorly against frigates and small craft, however they would be the ideal choice against other capital ships. This would allow for dedicated heavy beam ships that need to be protected by other fleet members or fighters (if a carrier), or capital ships could slot a mixture of heavy and normal beams for flexibility.


I think the above changes would really add variety to how combat plays out, and give ships more well-defined roles.

Last edited by haravikk; 02-07-2013 at 07:22 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,181
# 20
02-07-2013, 07:00 AM
I don't think their needs to be a nerf but instead improve Science and Engineers and perhaps improve non escort ships a little bit.
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