Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 937
# 21
02-07-2013, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
...if the scoring in the game also considered healing output and enemy neutralization.
to me this would sound like a step towards a good solution without the need of "equaling" everything till all is just one "tac-sci-eng"-career

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Last edited by wast33; 02-07-2013 at 07:14 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 149
# 22
02-07-2013, 07:19 AM
People are asking this for many months, Cryptic has no plans of changing this I guess. If you want to do OP dps, just roll Tac/Escort.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,753
# 23
02-07-2013, 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
This is true. Though I will always play Sci out of personal preference, I would like a balance to be struck between all 3 classes. It's true Tac's are the most effective, but we shouldn't call for the Nerf Bat. Key buffs to the other 2 classes, some skill changes, and we should be all set.

The only thing that I feel should be changed Tac side, is attack patterns buffing damage to science and engineering abilities. Attack patterns should really only buff weapons. If they did this, they could start buffing Sci abilities without people seeing attack pattern alpha gravity wells that hit for 1k+ damage per tick.
Im hoping the hints at revamp of the skills tree will help balance he classes. Though Tacs will always appear to have it easy as in any game being the blaster, fighter, Tac class is the simpliest class to play normally.
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Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5
# 24
02-07-2013, 07:30 AM
I have 2 characters. A Sci-Sci Fed and a Tac-Cruiser KDF.

I have maxed particle generator skill on my sci and use 2 blue mk XI particle gen consoles on the ship for my Sci Sci

I have ZERO points in particle generator skill and ZERO consoles for particle gen on my Tac-Tac.


My Tac's EWP3 does far more damage than my Sci Sci's GW3....


Science captains are just not fun to play. It takes 2x+ longer to accomplish the same feats my tac does. It also feels incredibly gimpy and weak by comparison. I feel like dead weight in stfs while I wait for my weak GW3 to come off cool down and it's usually made useless because tacs can just torp spread III.. As a result, I only doff and dil farm on my Fed char anymore.

It's not just me or the posters on this forum. If I look at either roster for my FED or KDF fleets, the vast majority are tac captains. The rest are alts people made for captain training.

Why crowd control if the tacs just kill everything in seconds anyway? Why heal if no one gets hurt because the enemies are all dead already? Why tank when enemies don't get but a few seconds to cause damage until a tac pops them? DPS is king in STO and it is rewarded. Tanking, healing, CCing are not. Roles just don't work in this game. DPS is always going to work all the time where as tanking and healing are situational and most the time un-needed.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,895
# 25
02-07-2013, 07:32 AM
One way (and probably the best way) would be to decouple attack patterns and sci skills then make sci skills actually effective again and then make all EPtX skills work to the same standard as EPtS meaning the EPtW weapon damage boost would cancel out the EPtS Shield resistance boost making cruisers a little more viable in pvp as well as reducing the drain effect (by whatever practical means) on beams thus making both science and engineers better without any major harm to the tac department and lets be honest, who flies tac to use sci powers?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 26
02-07-2013, 07:46 AM
If you're talking about pve, it's because instances are too easy that you only need tacs to complete them. Add more DPS and abilities to NPCs and you'll need heal boats and science ships too.

If you're talking about pvp, the problem is that tacs have several abilities increasing their dps and giving them immunities and resists at the same time. My KDF main is a tac and i love him but i also know that the attack pattern omega is giving way too much perks for what it is. And of course any tac captain will run APO half of the time, so, basically, we fly in god mode half of the times.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 114
# 27 OMG nerf tacs
02-07-2013, 07:56 AM
I'm tac captain and I drive a fleet escort that is a DPS monster. But it didn't come that way off the shelf. I have invested hundreds of hours of endless mission grinding to get the gear I needed to make it that way. I have over 160 million invested in tac consoles alone and I'm still not done. Then there's the hours upon hours of researching STO fan sites comparing notes from other tac captains on the best way to spec out your tac captain and the respec tokens purchased to conduct a lot of trial and error on my own. Making my little escort a DPS monster has been a long evolutionary project with a huge investment of personal time and to have some goof come on this forum demanding that all my efforts be nerfed quite frankly pisses me off. When eng and sci captains start investing half of the time and trouble perfecting their skills and ships that tac captains do then you might have a right to complain, but until then...please shut up and go away.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 293
# 28
02-07-2013, 08:01 AM
shield tanking escorts are just too durable.
Science abilities aren't strong enough to force them to turn aside in order to avoid death. 2.5% isn't enough for subsystem targeting. not with a 2 minute cooldown.
The only way a science officer can beat a tac scort is to dps him, outside of team play anyway. A buff to subsystem targeting would do a great deal to narrow this gap.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 29
02-07-2013, 08:01 AM
I will add to the OP's post concerning the extremely unfair advantage Tac captains have compared to the other 2 careers:


1- Damage boost abilities are global.

Yes, that means a tac captain in a science ship will do more damage with science abilities than a full fledged sci capt in a sci ship. Hit atk Alpha, Go down Fighting and gravity wells/photonic shockwave/repulsor beams/tractor beams/ ANYTHING sci based that does damage... gets a ~300% damage boost. A sci captain cannot even creep close to that damage output with sci capt abilities alone. All other abilities available to science boffs are broken and the stats they are associated with dont provide any noticeable boost to the ability (aside from healing..im talking offensive/crowd control abilities).

The same damage bonus applies to engineer damage abilities. Warp Plasma, Directed Energy Modulation... you name it.

Its ABSURD that a Tactical captain performs better in sci ships than a sci captain and than an engineer in a cruiser.

2- Escorts have access to all the defensive and navigation engineer and science bonuses via their tactical boff abilities.


Case in point: Attack Pattern Omega.

Defense boost = None. Unique.
Speed Boost = Emg Pwr to Engine
Immunity to holds = Polarize Hull
Damage boost = Emg Pwr to Weapons
Turn rate boost = Aux2Dampeners

HOLY CRAP. With this one ability the escort ship gets the EQUIVALENT of having Lt Cmdr engineer and Science station abilities.

Atk Omega is one of the primary reasons escorts, and particularly tac captains in escorts, are so ridiculously overpowered.

3- Stat bonuses are heavily biased to benefit tactical captains. This is the result of BAD design from the devs when they went F2P. The space revamp bunched all energy weapon types, all projectile weapon types, all the weapon-related damage boosting stats ...into an extremely simplistic 'this works for all' skill box. This resulted in all tac captains not needing to sacrifice skill points to gain max performance with which to stack upon their tac-capt dmg boosting abilities and their escort-based (lt cmdr tac+) station abilities.

Engineer and Science on the other hand, their skill boxes remained largely the same. Science in particular lost several stat-types and got them bunched into other stats... but by doing so the devs broke the stats and they have not provided any noticeable boost ever since.

Case in point: Gravity Well.

Pre-F2P a grav well 3 fired by someone with ZERO particle/graviton skills would be what we have now @9pnts in both. Assuming both being fired @ max aux. A grav well 3 with 9pnts in grav/particle + max aux on the other hand, was so effective that ships would be sucked into the center of the anomaly and be held there the entire duration UNLESS they used polarize hull or evasive maneuvers. Atk Omega did not use to break you free from holds, it used to prevent holds (aka you had to had omega active before a hold hit you or it would not protect you).

Today, the particle skill hardly gives you any damage bonus and graviton skill barely affects the super weak strength of the tractor effect.

We know for a FACT that it is the bonus to these stats that is intentionally set so low that they are useless. How do we know? In season 3 or 4 (I forget which) there was a patch that boosted these stats...and for a few days grav wells had returned to pre-f2p levels.

Case in point: Sensor abilities.

Jam and Scramble Sensors used to have long durations and used to take a LOT of damage before the effect broke. A sci ship COULD crowd control with them back in pre-f2p. Now however the effect is so weak a single hit by a mk1 white turret will break a jam sensor 3 fired by a sci ship @ max aux +9pnts in countermeasures.

Case in point: Tachyon Beam.

Pre-F2P this ability was incredibly useful. It drained a darn good amount of shields and most importantly it used to prevent shield balancing while active (10 seconds). It was a true support ability and was an important asset for any team to have.

Today, because the stat associated with it is so weak, tachyon beam 3 is a wasted slot. It doesnt even prevent shield balancing (no idea why this was removed in space revamp!).

Case in point: Power Drains

Same old story. Before a single siphon 3 could make a cruiser captain sweat... now its another wasted slot because flow capacitors bonus is very low. Plus the added power drain resists (which were never needed to begin with!).


So, overall, tac abilities received an impressive boost while sci and engineer abilities got tossed and flushed down the toilet.

Before F2P the game was balanced in the sense that escorts were NOT the highest damage dealers (cruisers were) but they were the only ships with the speed and turn rate to focus on one shield facing and pummel it down. Cruisers were the most difficult ships to shoot down since they were monster tanks AND they had the highest firepower..but their turn rate and speed were crap. Sci ships were the best shield tanks but had very weak hulls so they could only buffer tank...and while they had the lowest dps of all ships, they did their fighting with science abilities... a disable, tractor, energy drain, grav well, sensor jam... all these were used to turn powerful enemies into weak enemies so that their low dps could take them down.

Cruisers used to fear sci ships, sci ships used to fear escorts, escorts used to be VERY afraid of both cruisers and sci ships when under 5km range and REALLY flew to avoid cruiser broadsides and sci ship's forward aspect (most sci abilities fire forward)... but even though they were afraid of them the escort could shoot them both down quickly IF he attacked the same shield and IF he used his weapons and abilities right.

That was the balance. It is gone now. Replaced by sheer idiotic raw DPS and ungodly tanking ability given to escort ships... its point/click/boom gameplay...and the 'brainplay' that used to be sci and engineer has been twisted into 'ooh look i can heal' spamming.


How to FIX the game and return it to balance:

1- Remove ALL speed/turn/rate/damage/healing bonuses granted by any skill box. Let ship equipment determine this.

* the effect this will have is that it will make all ships return to pre-f2p tactical combat rather than stupid arcade fighting. By removing the rank-based boosts to all these, ship combat once again becomes a matter of who uses and flies their ships better not just who can stack damage abilities or healing abilities and spam them regardless of where their ship is pointing or flying.

2- Split Atk Omega into Attack and Evasive Pattern.

Atk Omega:

Small Damage resist debuff
Medium Damage boost
Medium Turn rate boost
Large Accuracy buff

Evasive Gamma (?)
Immunity to holds
Large Speed Boost
Medium Defense boost
Medium turn rate boost.

3- Increase stat effect of all sci and engineer skill boxes by a significant amount.

4- Remove tactical captain boost abilities from affecting non-weapon based damage.
I know the tac boosts do this because the damage done by non-weapons is always classed as kinetic... so how about simply re-assigning that non-weapon damage to a new damage type: Exotic damage. Just like pre-f2p.

The only way to resist exotic damage should be through armor, consoles and boff ability resistance. Defense rating should not be factored into damage reduction equations since sci abilities are not 'aimed' like weapons are.
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 59
# 30
02-07-2013, 08:05 AM
The issue for me is the escorts benefit from the new shield and hull passives, doff-rep, that add to their tankiness. Escorts should be hit and run. Instead they became stop and hit.

1. The cycle and the power drain of DHC in rapid fire is less than the beams with beam fire at will. A 1 sec increase in their cycle and an increase in drain, or a decrease in drain from beams should be implemented.

2. Reverse shield polarity should be moved to be Lt. Com. eng boff with a cooldown 75- 90 sec instead of 120 sec. The same with Directed energy modulation with a 60-75 sec cooldown. A small increase in stats should also happen for these 2 abilities.

3. Gravity Well should have bigger pull numbers. For sci abilities it is easy, restore them to values before of their nerf. Many of them had huge nerfs. Increase effectiveness/range of Charge particle burst and photonic shockwave. Some cooldowns should be made to 45 sec for sci abilities.

I know that escort captains will object and say that these changes will make cruisers and science ships over powered. I would respond that escorts are fast in order to hit and run. Otherwise nerf their speed and turn numbers and name them Dreadnoughts.

By the way, tell me the last time that you saw a science ship take an escort down. Because we all know that science ships > escorts, cruisers > science ships, escorts > cruisers. At least that was the original idea of the game at the start.

Last edited by kronosath; 02-07-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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